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(Q115 Name of Hat Types)
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:I believe it should be done. "Light Headgears" and "Heavy Headgears" sounds good to me, and won't have people arguing over the term hat or helmet, either. --[[User:Powder Rune|Powder Rune]] 21:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
:I believe it should be done. "Light Headgears" and "Heavy Headgears" sounds good to me, and won't have people arguing over the term hat or helmet, either. --[[User:Powder Rune|Powder Rune]] 21:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
:yeah... headgears would be better word to use...--[[User:Chrissyofhailfire|chrissy of hailfire]] 07:54, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
:yeah... headgears would be better word to use...--[[User:Chrissyofhailfire|chrissy of hailfire]] 07:54, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
== Q116 Templates for Item Grades and Dye Details ==
I created [[Template:Item Grades]] and [[Template:Dye Details]] after seeing the ones for repair costs. I was wondering if we should use them or if someone had more to add before we do. I was thinking of leaving a note for usage, such as
<pre>==[[Dye]] Details==
<!--Before you edit this section, please go [[Template:Dye Details|here]] for instructions on usage --></pre>
or something along those lines so that people can learn how to correctly fill the dye table out (which I feel will be more confusing to users than the other templates). Any thoughts or suggestions? -- [[User:Powder Rune|Powder Rune]] 03:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:42, 29 June 2010


If you have a question pertaining to the wiki, you may post it here.

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How would I gain access to edit Common.css? There are a lot of repeated style="..." in such places as table templates, width-compressed in-game book text, and so forth that ought to be made into class entries in the style sheet, so they can be brought in with class="..." declarations. Particularly in the case of the in-game book text, it would be much preferable to adjust things like the width of the book text, or the size of the book titles, by changing one line in the style sheet instead of every book article individually. I'd also like to do things like shade the backgrounds of the ideal types tables pink for women or blue for men without hardcoding the colors for each table individually. --Lionheart (Talk) 16 February 2010

Only admins can edit it, afaik. Try asking User:Ikkisuki to make the changes you want. I'd do it but I've never edited it before and wouldn't know what to do. --- Angevon (Talk) 20:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


Mabbi added a drop location for Ice Spear page 2, noting that it is now obtainable through a shadow mission. Would someone please confirm/deny? Thanks. -- Jspillers | (Talk) 03:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

    • Edit Angevon added this when creating the page for the Grundal. I would still be interested to know if anyone in NA has seen this drop from the monster or not. -- Jspillers | (Talk) 03:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I've experimented several times and I deny it drops frpm the pink Grumbil.


I've asked this on the Enchant talk page but doesn't seem to have been noticed so I'll ask on Q&A. I've created an Enchant Database based off/same as the one JPwiki has. It's still missing the G11 and G12 enchants but it should be mostly complete for the enchants up to G9. I was wondering if a link to the database could be placed somewhere like the Enchant category page? --Berkt 23:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

It looks good and I think a link in the Enchant category page would be helpful. However, I'm not an admin and at present this Q&A page doesn't seem to be used much, so you might want to ask an admin directly. --ZRoc (Talk) 02:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I think that link will be fine on the enchants category page. --- Angevon (Talk) 17:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


I made a help page for DFO wiki: Think a version of this might be helpful here? -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 04:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

eh, made one anyway for my own use, dunno if it might be helpful elsewhere. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 05:30, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Q102 - Equipment List Style Change.

As most of you know most of our items have been converted to having the blue colors. but there has been no change to the list of clothing shoes ect. they still have the black backgrounds. I've talked to Angevon about changing them to fit the rest of the wiki and has requested that i get the opinion of everyone else before i go ahead and change things.(the equipments actual page however will not be changed) personally making the lists seem more a part of the site would make things flow smoother, and with the game icons for items being put into transparent backgrounds we don't have to worry about having nasty black blocks. please give your thoughts on this and any suggestions. if you wish to see how the page would look like please visit my userpage where i already started on future content of shoes.--chrissy of hailfire 05:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind the existing style or the style you are suggesting, my only concern is if your style can be easily maintained. As long as someone is always prepared to make icons of items with clear backgrounds then I don't have a problem. However, if you can't ensure that happens in future then the tables are going to look weird with clear and black background icons (if no one is prepared at some future time to give items clear backgrounds). The black background icons are easy to create without having to do more than cut a rectangular image from a screenshot and uploading it to the wiki. Simple image editing programs like mine can do this but not the clear background images. I'm not going to get a more sophisticated program or bother to learn how to do it. Also, I'll get really tired of always asking someone to do it for me and will end up just adding the black background images to the table (someone can fix it when they find it). It might be worth noting that someone has made clear backgrounds of images in the past (for NPCs as well as items I think) but then stopped. --ZRoc (Talk) 16:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I am currently working on making images with clear backgrounds. and i've done so with most of the images on the shoes and robe lists. I'm planning on doing the changes in style at the same time a list's icons have the transparent background (basicly when i'm finished with all the icons in the page will the style change.
as for the ease of changing and updating... the code currently for a single item is thus
      <TD class="tbimages">[[File:Vivid Casual Shoes.png]]</TD>
      <TD class="names">[[Vivid Casual Shoes]]</TD>
And the new style that i'm proposing will be like this
|- style="background-color: #e7f3e8;"
|  [[File:Vivid Casual Shoes.png]] || [[Vivid Casual Shoes]] || - || 1 || 0 || 12 ||
personally, its much easier on someone who's changing things around as all the code for a single item is on one line rather than on multiple lines. and for people that don't know much about codes they don't have to worry about putting the TD tags in...--chrissy of hailfire 05:26, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I like it since it does match the colorscheme of Blacksmithing List and some other tables. Also the icons are easier to see when they don't have the black background. The html TD etc. tables are annoying to edit, for sure. --- Angevon (Talk) 13:17, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I shall take the three votes for and no opposition as a go ahead since its been a week since it was brought to attention


There's a bunch of equipment that can be worn by both male and female characters, and in some pages (Premium Newbie Wear (M), Premium Newbie Wear (F)), both male and female preview images are on the wiki. There are quite a few pages - Tera Adventurer Wear comes to mind as an example - in which male (or female, in other cases) preview images could also be added. Would this be all right? Or is there a reason why some unisex equipment has both preview images and some doesn't? Also, should preview images taken in the character simulator be replaced on a regular basis with ingame images if possible, or left there? --- Luridel 00:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

personally I would prefer in-game images as the character simulator is always (just a little) bit inaccurate if you do side-by-side comparisons. As for both male and female images, personally I would prefer to have both, as sometimes the differences are quite radical, and other times it doesn't matter, and it would be useful to see the differences (and/or the fact that there isn't any difference can be noted in the text, or shown via images) -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 02:12, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I believe the reason why there are both male and female versions with the pictures is because of a item having the same name but female and male versions (such as magic school uniform. however there was a topic brought up about having giant versions be included with the images as there is a significant model base change especially with male giants.--chrissy of hailfire 07:47, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I was referring specifically to unisex clothing where both male and female versions of those outfits can be worn by either gender - such as with Beginner Long Pants, the male version and Beginner Skirt, the female version, and other unisex outfits. With Magic School Uniform, the wiki denotes it by (M) and (F) and they're on separate pages, totally different outfits, neither can be worn by the opposite gender, and there's only one gender's worth of images per page - this isn't what I was asking about. I do agree that for clothes that can be worn by humans/elves and giants, seeing both in the previews would be nice - human and elf models seem sort of interchangeable, but giants do look pretty different. Buuut I'm nobody important, which was why I was asking in the first place about the other thing. --- Luridel 16:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
I say go for it. the boobs and the waist make a difference in clothes appearance, and y'know, that's what clothes are for, appearances. =D -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 16:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Your pictures are great, Luridel, and so I have no complaints about adding male and female versions for unisex clothes. We probably should add pictures for giants too when they can wear the clothes. There have been a number of requests for them. But I'm not sure how to fit them into the table without making it huge. --- Angevon (Talk) 19:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Images for all races and genders that can equip an item is a good idea but as Angevon pointed out it will make the image table huge. Others have complained about the size of the image gallery before, as in making the page too long. A possible solution is to create a sub-page containing separate image galleries for all races (each containing female and male images, if applicable) that can equip an item. Choose one gallery to be displayed on the main page, put it in <onlyinclude> and </onlyinclude> tags on the sub-page and transclude it to the main page using {{main page name/sub-page name}}. Then on the main page link to the sub-page with something like "Go to the [[sub-page name|image gallery page]] to view images for all races.".

For example, a page for Chic Suit can have the sub-page Chic Suit/Images with three separate galleries, one each for Human, Elf and Giant (each including female and male images). The Human version (any race can be chosen) is transcluded to the main page by putting that gallery on the sub-page inside <onlyinclude> and </onlyinclude> tags and using {{Chic Suit/Images}} on the main page. This will display only the Human gallery on the main page but displays all the galleries on the sub-page. On the main page, the sub-page is linked to in the sentence "Go to the [[Chic Suit/Images|image gallery page]] to view images for all races.".

If an item can only be equipped by a single race then the image gallery is placed on the main page and no sub-page is created.

Credit for this idea belongs to Wikipedia which uses sub-pages to display large tables in different formats from that used on the main page of an article. If the above seems complicated I can set up the Chic Suit page to show what I described above (it's actually quite simple to do). --ZRoc (Talk) 22:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

set it up please, I think it will make things alot clearer. =D -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 00:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I made a mistake above, on the main page you need to use {{:Chic Suit/Images}} (note the use of a colon in front of "Chic Suit/Images") and not {{Chic Suit/Images}}. The Chic Suit and its sub-page image gallery have been created, view the main page (i.e., Chic Suit) in edit mode to see that the image gallery displayed there is a transclusion, while the sub-page holds the actual image galleries. --ZRoc (Talk) 02:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
hmm well I like it. =) I like the fact that the original page isn't cluttered, but that the info is still there. I dunno if there's a better way around it, but it's certainly a good solution for now. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 02:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you =3. I'll leave the Chic Suit page as it is then, if others like it then they can use it to copy the code. If someone has objections or a better idea then I'm sure they'll let us know XD. --ZRoc (Talk) 02:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
yeah i certainly like it as well it would be worth all the images if people can actually see what it would look like on their character.--chrissy of hailfire 08:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
You can search for the sub-page (type "Chic Suit" in the search bar and it will list the Chic Suit page and the Chic Suit/Images sub-page), it can be included in categories separate from the Chic Suit page (e.g., the sub-page can be added to Category:NeedPicture, while the main page isn't) and, as mentioned above, it can be linked to by using [[Chic Suit/Images]]. --ZRoc (Talk) 15:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Note: This is a transclusion and not a template. The normal table hard code is available on the image gallery sub-page and can be changed or adjusted as required for each item page that uses such a sub-page. It by-passes some of the restrictions caused by using a template, especially those caused by style/data templates. Also, as each sub-page is created for a specific item (and therefore won't be transcluded to many pages) then editing them won't produce server lag which occurs when editing a template that's used a lot. --ZRoc (Talk) 15:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Q104 - Monster Template

While the blue monster template is pretty, I find it extremely annoying to view and find the information I'm concerned with. I much prefer the Shadow Mission Monster template and thus made a test template that mirrors it, using the blue template's transclusion codes. Some elements of the blue template I'd kept because I thought they were neat, however I'm open to suggestions/changes.

Working example of the proposed monster template. (includes several stress tests, such as high numbers, multiple locations)

I would highly welcome comments and critique. I would also like to hear from people who find the blue template difficult to use as well, to get their opinion on what works for them and what doesn't.

Update: discussion for this topic is ridiculously long. I've placed the older threads on a dedicated archive page, although please continue to comment here. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 23:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)


Monster templates have been implemented. Thank you for all your feedback and support! -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 12:53, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Q105 - Synthesis recipes on weapon pages y/n?

Occurred with War Sword, see history, but I wonder. 'Cause we already have the blacksmith requirements on the weapon page, so should we have the Synth details on the page itself as well? But this could get so freaking messy considering that we are in progress of discovering recipes... I'll put a link to the recipe pages for now. But, y'know, it's a thought for the future for when the recipes become confirmed as the only recipes. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 00:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

If a fixed synthesis recipe produces that item then I think it would be worth listing the actual recipe on the item's page but if the item is produced by a random synthesis recipe then I'd just make a link to the appropriate list of those given on the Synthesis List page. Or you could add an anchor to each item listed in the Created Item column for each of the synthesis lists (random and fixed), so they can be directly linked to. --ZRoc (Talk) 18:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Well, we're going to have all the details for every method of obtaining the item on the pages anyway right? I don't see why there should be an exception for synthesis.--Sozen Cratos Focker 06:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
You can have a single sentence stating random synthesis recipes produce the item and link to the appropriate random synthesis list or have a large table containing all the possible random recipes that might produce the item. For fixed synthesis recipes there is only one recipe per item and so it would only be a small table added to the item's page or you could use a single sentence linking to the fixed recipe table (just to be consistent lol). --ZRoc (Talk) 08:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC).

Q106: tooltips

Is there a way to add a tooltip to something on this wiki? (without bugging IRJustman to ask for an extension) --Sozen Cratos Focker 09:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Q107: Scrollable text boxes?

Is there a way to put a scrollable text box or something like that in a table?--Sozen Cratos Focker 10:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

nvm. found an example on someone's userpage. --Sozen Cratos Focker 09:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Q108: Real Life History

On some pages (see Nuadha#Trivia) we have information from the Mabinogion (Welsh pre-Christian Celtic mythology) and I want to know if this is really necessary. Mabinogi is a game very loosely based on this mythology but it incorporates information from other mythologies or countries (e.g., armor that is Korean based, Japanese swords, etc). The names and places of the Mabinogion have in many cases been completely changed either in relation to the real names or their mythology. However, my main gripe is that this wiki is meant to supply info about the game and not a history lesson. The real mythology has nothing to do with the game play, provides no useful information to help players and basically wastes space. Also, in the past it has led to edit wars. If it's really necessary then could we have it restricted to only a single page, which I suggest be the existing Mabinogi (mythology), though I see no real point to that page either. --ZRoc (Talk) 22:34, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's usually not what people come here, but some people would want to know that stuff, so I don't think it's a problem as long as its somewhere out of the way like at the bottom of the page. However, other than the stuff on Mabinogi (mythology), anything that gets into too much detail and/or beyond 1~3 lines should probably be condensed to a very short summary and/or a link Wikipedia or something.--Sozen Cratos Focker 23:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
It is entirely irrelevant to the game, many NPC pages are already too long (note your own comment in Q104 about the "this section has reached 41kb" warning) and not even historians agree on how to interpret the Mabinogion prose, let alone having editors placing such information on this wiki. Nuadha's page is short at present simply because he has not been implemented on the NA server. Don't you remember Random / Ember Incubus / Hawk400206, his attempts to rename everything using actual Mabinogion names, trying to use his "expert" historical facts as part of actual game play and his edit wars with various users? If you want non-game information of interest then do we add, to the already too long equipment pages, information about related Korean armor and Japanese swords, to Christmas and Easter events information about Jesus (which sure didn't belong to those non-Christian Celts), etc. --ZRoc (Talk) 00:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree with putting all real mythology into Mabinogi (mythology); but would suggest that to prevent future spamming of non-game info to put something like, "For information about actual celtic myths this game character is based on, please see here." -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 01:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Better still, why not add to the wiki policy:
The Welsh pre-Christian Celtic mythology called Mabinogion is fully dealt with in such sources as Wikipedia or the Encyclopædia Britannica. For a comparison to the game Mabinogi, which bears little resemblance to this Celtic mythology, you can review the aforementioned or similar sources. There are also many online sites open to debating which interpretation of the Mabinogion is correct (type "Mabinogion" in a search engine), feel free to use them for such discussions rather than this wiki.
Then if anyone adds unrelated historical "facts" to a wiki, that is meant to be providing info on a non-historical online game, we can point them to the policy and just delete the unnecessary information. If that seems a bit harsh then I'll agree with ladywinter's suggestion XD. By the way, mentioning the Mabinogion to any players in-game usually gets a "I couldn't care less" response. Apparently, they came to play a fantasy online RPG, gossip and/or just hang out, not to have a school lesson (I actually agree with that sentiment lol). --ZRoc (Talk) 05:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Of course, doing [censored] [censored] like renaming pages based on what something is called outside of the game or replacing game statistics with comments about remotely related mythology should get you banned, but I don't see the harm in putting a brief description of what that part of the game's story was based on in a "trivia" section at the bottom of the page, as long as it actually is brief, and it's clearly separated from the actual game data rather than confusingly mixed in with the main content of the page.--Sozen Cratos Focker 08:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
How about this, anything longer than one line or two get's moved to the mythology page with a link to "see here for yadda yadda"? -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 14:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
My point is simple. You've already seen what can happen, thanks to Random, when someone thinks they're a historical expert and is using their "expertise" to supply non-game related info. Also, any info on Mabinogion is NOT fact, there is no agreement on how it is interpreted, the subject is highly debatable. The wiki policy already states;
If you're taking information from a source, make sure to link to the source. - they have not supplied any reference to back up these so called facts.
Do not knowingly make up information to confuse people. - they are supplying info that has nothing to do with the game, cannot be verified in the game and is at best an opinion.
Do not insert comments into articles. - These are their own personal comments, not facts about the game.
Do not make joke pages or non-Mabinogi-related pages - The info is not related to mabinogi, it is about a mythology that has little real relation to the game, as their comparison proves. --ZRoc (Talk) 23:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Also, if their allowed to do that then I want to do a page about Japanese swords (I'll just copy/paste from Wikipedia and what I've learned from Bleach) and on each Japanese sword's page add "please go to this page for information regarding the history of katanas". Then I want to do a page on the English Tudor swords, which the game uses a lot of (and which never existed for the Celts that created the Mabinogion). Oh yeah, we will also need to indicate on pages which ones don't belong to the Mabinogion mythology or completely contradict it, otherwise people will think katanas, English Tudor swords and the christian faith all belonged to those Welsh pre-Christian Celtic people. --ZRoc (Talk) 23:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
It's not unrelated to the game. The story is important in any RPG, so the probable origins of parts of the story are relevant enough for a small footnote. When I tried to look up things like this myself on Wikipedia, some of them were a little hard to find due to differences in spelling, so links to things like that could be useful, and a link really doesn't take much space.
About the sword info, go ahead! Well, the swords in the game were based not on the ones from bleach but on the swords that the bleach ones were based on. The stuff from bleach would not be relevant but the stuff from Wikipedia would be, though just linking would make more sense than copying. I'd even be willing to assist with that project if someone takes your sarcastic suggestion seriously.
In Nuadha#Trivia, i don't see a reason to say who replaced and who killed him, but then again, I've yet to learn all the details of his involvement in Mabinogi's version of the story.--Sozen Cratos Focker 02:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

only reason why i see real life history being included into the wiki is if it in some way helps in the understanding of the story, characters, or location in some way... yeah there are items from all over the world in the game and its not limited to the time period that the game is supposed to take place either but those are side things in my opinion that just allow you to enjoy the game. basically only keep it to what would help or enhance the gaming or role playing experience.--chrissy of hailfire 04:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

No problem then, I will start making the pages for greek mythology (Uroboros monster already has that mentioned in its trivia section), christian mythology, persian mythology, roman mythology, viking mythology, japanese mythology... oh dear we need about 30,000 more pages to cover every mythology in the world. Lets tell Wikipedia that we will now be its mythology section. Those mythologies would all be relevant to Mabinogi cause the game designers have included parts of all of them, NOT just the Mabinogion. And again the info supplied for the Mabinogion is someone's opinion there is no agreement on how the Mabinogion prose should be interpreted. They are still arguing about King Arthur's origins and he plays a small part in the Mabinogion. Also, as with most non-historical games they have altered it as they please, so the history is irrelevant to the role-playing experience in Mabinogi. For example, how can you role-play Morrighan when she is Nuadha's wife in the game but supposedly is his granddaughter in the mythology (incest anyone)? --ZRoc (Talk) 06:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Noting differences between the original myth and Mabinogi's story may not be necessary, but if it doesn't take up much space, i don't see a problem. Also, if the game's story doesn't explain why his arm is silver, then that part of the trivia section is definitely helpful.--Sozen Cratos Focker 06:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
You just proved my point, the game designers have not seen fit to supply an explanation, so now your using pure speculation as the reason why the in-game Nuahda lost his arm. This is what Random was doing and should the game later provide a contrary explanation that better suits the game designers intentions (say in some book or side quest) then the wiki has been providing no helpful info what-so-ever. Note that, many of the in-game books explaining Errin's history do not follow the Mabinogion mythology! Nor does the game! The only fact pertaining to why the in-game Nuadha lost his arm is that it's unexplained at present. Unless you can go to Korea and have devCAT provide you with a detailed history of what they intend to use, then you are using incorrect information. Basically someone is trying to tell their version of the story, which is pure speculation and that's against wiki policy. Also, everyone jumped up and down about how much space is wasted by the table of contents at the top of a page (which is actually helpful), yet adding non-related game info is fine? --ZRoc (Talk) 07:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
As for other mythologies playing only a small part, you haven't noticed the village of American Indians smack in the middle of Courcle? Their not a small part, they play a rather large part in Generation 7. Most of those ancient Celts were wiped out by the Roman Empire well before Europe "discovers" the American continent, in fact more than 1,000 years before America was "discovered". American Indians played no part in the Mabinogion and as far as those ancient Celts, whose mythology is used in the Mabinogion, did not exist. Mabinogi was created by a bunch of South Koreans, about a mythology that existed more than 2,000 years ago in the British Isles, was written into Welsh tales in medieval times and then translated into English just a mere 100 years ago. Exactly which of these do you want to use as a resource of information in a game whose developers are making it up as they go along? Note that, the often quoted English translations are not agreed upon, they are still debating what is correct or incorrect more than 100 years after they were published (including names, places and events). --ZRoc (Talk) 08:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
If the name of the game is almost identical to the name of the collection of stories, and most aspects of the main story of the game bear strong resemblance to that collection of stories, concluding that the game's story was at least loosely based on those stories is not pure speculation, it's common sense.
Tables of contents are at the top of the page, and therefore push everything down making scrolling always necessary. For ToC, moving it to the bottom of the page would defeat the purpose of having it, but with a trivia section, there's no reason not to move it to the bottom, and wasting screen space isn't an issue for something at the bottom of the page.if it's at the bottom of the page. Also, the issue with the ToC was about it's positioning and default hide/show status, not about people trying to get rid of it altogether.

You know, this continent didn't just magically appear the day the Europeans first found out about it, it's been here for quite a while, mot to mention that it was even discovered by many other people before that, including the vikings, who did influence those stories.
OK, so the native Americans probably had nothing to do with the Mabinogion, but you yourself suggested making pages about katanas and all other non=Mabinogi mythology and history lessons(I'm still seriously saying your sarcastic suggestion wasn't a half bad idea.).--Sozen Cratos Focker 10:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

~facepalm~ Guys, if it doesn't relate at all to direct game information, ie. "This character says 'blah' in dialogue." or "This data appears when you mouse over a sword.", just don't put it in the article. If it's trivia and more than one line, move it elsewhere, otherwise it's speculation or not applicable. You may as well go into how the Japanese blacksmiths fold and temper their metal on the j-sword pages. Which is fun information to know, but still not applicable. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 18:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree but again you can't add a single line of trivia as there ares NO facts. The Mabinogion has multiple articles contradicting each other, if you quote one source then you are in conflict with another. Therefore, all the trivia notes are pure speculation and they DON'T even supply which source they are quoting (another wiki policy that is required). You don't even know if devCAT is using the English translation done 100 years ago or is basing it on the Medieval Welsh tales (from at least a few centuries earlier) which have been further investigated more recently. Those two sources are VERY different in content since the original written language those Welsh tales used is difficult to accurately translate to English. The original translator called it Mabinogion but later investigation suggests that Mabinogi is more accurate (or so searching the web has discovered). So adding the info about Nuadha losing his arm is no more accurate than saying "Moby Dick bit off his arm". They are both speculation, as devCAT has not seen fit to supply further info.
Leaving the trivia on a page will have others add to it as they see fit (just wait till another Random joins the wiki). Random isn't the only misguided user you'll get on the wiki. Keeping that irrelevant, and more importantly inaccurate, info on the wiki will encourage others to expand on it. The wiki policy has already been ignored by adding it and there is nothing in it that states they can't use it to add more or that it needs to be restricted to one line. Also, some of the personal history of individual's in the Mabinogion is quite long, how in the hell are you going to restrict it to one line? These persons are related to many other important individuals and are involved in many very important events (some of which will never occur in the game and some may but usually in a changed form). Nuadha already includes 4 sentences just describing the lose of his arm, his position in their society, his relation to Morrighan and his involvement in just one battle. So we still need his involvement with the other gods, fomors and humans, his involvement in other important events, his history as a prince and as a king, etc, etc. These are all "important" in regard to his entirely different existence in the game. That's gonna be a long single sentence. --ZRoc (Talk) 08:45, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
If you want to speculate, provide a version of the Mabinogion or give info on other mythologies then put it on your user page. The same with katanas =P --ZRoc (Talk) 08:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
dayum, I didn't know those myths were so complicated! XD ~sticks with greek myths~ Okay then! Stick speculation elsewhere and approach the admin about the violation of policy! x.x didn't know the facts were that up in the air. -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 02:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Complicated is right, just check the Name section near the top of the page for "Tuatha Dé Danann" or the Etymology section near the top of the page for "Fomorians" on Wikipedia. Note that, Wikipedia states that Fomorians were described as
"They are sometimes said to have had the body of a man and the head of a goat, according to an 11th century text in Lebor na hUidre (the Book of the Dun Cow), or to have had one eye, one arm and one leg, but some, for example Elatha, the father of Bres, were very beautiful."
None of those descriptions, except for perhaps Elatha (though, in the game, I'd say he was handsome rather than beautiful), fit any fomor in the game at all. If the Celts thought something with a goats head could be beautiful then perhaps they used goats for more than animal husbandry during those long, lonely cold winters XD. --ZRoc (Talk) 13:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Q109 - Range

Okay, so I keep seeing these numbers everywhere with splash range of melee weapons and ranges of bows. How long/far *is* 500 or 1000 or 1500? I think this would be really helpful if we have a pictorial representation of these distances somewhere on this site, using well known landmarks. Perhaps the trees in Dunbarton square or something. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 03:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Distance. I haven't finished the article yet so check back. It's going include picture of distances.--Hengsheng120·TALKCONTRIBS 03:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I've been thinking about making pictorial representations for the ranges of attacks for a long time, but someone(I think it was one of the admins) said they were going to ask IJ to implement support for a specific method of vector imagery, so I I'm not sure if I'll start on that before I see that that has happened. As for landmarks for a frame of reference for comparison, I was thinking something far more familiar to players in the context of size: Dungeon rooms. --Sozen Cratos Focker 07:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Dungeon rooms would be helpful EXCEPT for the fact that they don't have any landmarks either, and vary in size. I would actually like data points for how big various dungeon rooms are as well, as it would help with the consideration of which bow to use, and if one should go melee.
I like the new image added to the Distance page, but it needs more landmarks. The Dunbarton floor doesn't really have easily parsed floors, distance wise. Some dungeons have blocky floors so that may work better. Another possible location is along the upper wall along the border of Dunbarton castle, behind the church, with the repeating bits of casement. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 14:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Well of course I would show each type of dungeon room (alby, alby boss, runda, runda boss, etc.) individually. I think I even know where in the game files to find the numbers for that too.
Heng, are you sure that SS was taken from a normal (unmodded) zoom distance?--Sozen Cratos Focker 03:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Yea I specifically removed my mods for it. It's the default max zoom out (1500).--Hengsheng120·TALKCONTRIBS 06:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe I should modify the textures so they all become grids and I can measure distance accurately. I can even put a reference distance in the texture so that it can be easily seen. Also keep in mind that in Iria there is difference perspective so I need to do some for iria too. The reason I used dunbarton is because the texture squares are close to the distance 500, so it all looks like a grid to me. For other areas I would need to look at the xmls so i know how big the textures are rendered at, and proportion the distance depending on how to floor texture is used.--Hengsheng120·TALKCONTRIBS 07:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
It's a great idea, but it's technically not allowed here >< --Sozen Cratos Focker 10:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm kind of confused as to why there's no talk about using natural landmarks in the picture. If you stand at Dunbarton bank and look towards Nerys, there's a series of trees that are regularly spaced apart. These are well known to everyone, it's even next to the street if you need it for your own personal frame of reference. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 18:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh! THOSE trees. I guess the "well known" thing threw me off.
Well, You're a genius! I don't think they're that well known [yet], but they are evenly spaced, and they're easy to get to so people who want a better frame of reference can just go there and compare the picture to what they see in-game(to get a better idea of what it looks like from different camera angles and zoom distances), and they're three dimensional rather than dots on the floor(a lot of people would have trouble estimating distance with the floor when they need to look at the top of the monster for the hp bar and stuff.) but with mostly straight and thin trunks and-...
Ok, now there's some talk about it. Happy? lol--Sozen Cratos Focker 19:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
lol yes, those trees. And yes, happy. xD -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 00:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Q110 - Approximation Drop Rate

While everyone's luck is different (some may get what they want at 1% chance while some may not even get it at 40% chance), it would be nice to add in an approximation drop rate for some items. I'm not sure if they are in the client files, but maybe some testing may help? Template may look similar like "(Nothing) - 50% , Hp 50 Potion (40%), Headband (10%) " etc. An estimate of what can be dropped. Is this idea acceptable? --Miyuna 14:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

good idea but the potential for subjectivity and abuse is legion. I wouldn't recommend it unless you can pull it from the client files. -- ladywinter ~{talk page}~ 14:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking however, the drop rate may be server sided? I'm not sure. But what I do know is that boss tend to have a better drop rate than a normal counter part. Take the Adv Succubus for example. She has a better drop rate of Ice Spear Page 2, than finding a Basic level Grumbil, however getting to her is more difficult than fighting a grumbil. In a different sceanario, Fireball page 5-6 are common drops from common werewolves but things like Fireball 3-4 are hard earned from Gremlins. --Miyuna 14:53, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
If there was drop rate info in the client files, the it would be added to every time a new monster came out. I've never noticed any hint of drop related info in the client files.--Sozen Cratos Focker 03:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
To get scientific statistically acceptable data for probability, you need to do it thousands to hundreds of thousands of times, depending on the drop rate. I don't anyone would even want to do that.--Hengsheng120·TALKCONTRIBS 07:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
well, 100 trials would be enough for a rough estimate(Which would be better than nothing), If the drop rate was simply a number. However, it seems that at least some drops and drop rates are conditional. When some people consistently get AR8 almost every other run and others don't get it after 50 runs, it's hard to believe that such a big difference in success is mere coincidence or luck.--Sozen Cratos Focker 10:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm against it for the time being. It would indeed be useful information, but since we can't verify it in the client files, the best we can do is maybe mention "Drop rate is low for the Sulfur Golem Crystal" in the monster's notes section. --- Angevon (Talk) 20:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Q111 - NPCs that are also monsters

We have some NPCs that are or have been monsters, by monsters I mean they can be directly attacked by a player (not by only using an AoE skill) and are meant to attack a player. Where that character can be interacted with while not fighting, then I wish to create two pages. One for the character that the player interacts with when not fighting using "Character Name" and another for a combat version "Character Name (Monster)". The monster version would contain the monster table or be a redirect page to a monster page that contains its monster table in a section. The non-combat info page would contain their in-game background and/or info related to their non-combat interactions with players. In some cases, when players actually interact with these NPCs, their appearance, location and allegiances may differ, as compared to when they are a monster. Some of these NPCs don't do much except talk at you and fight in the mainstream story (i.e., they don't sell stuff, you can't start a travel diary type conversation, etc.) but they can provide a lot of info about the game's story and/or are involved in multiple events. Where a minor NPC does nothing but fight (i.e., doesn't provide any info) then I would only create one page using "Character Name" and add the monster table or make it a redirect page. Also, some NPCs use a different name as a monster (e.g., "Kristell"/"Succubus Kristell" and "Morgant"/"Dark Lord") and therefore would be separated as such (i.e., I would use "Kristell" and "Succubus Kristell" rather than "Kristell" and "Kristell (Monster)").

This would allow the monster table of an NPC to be included as a section of a monster page listing similar monster types, with a link in a table's Advice section telling people to go to the NPC version's page for non-combat info. Possibly a mainstream only monsters page (i.e., only lists monsters found in the mainstream story), with a warning at the top that these all involve spoilers rather than putting them in hidden text boxes? Similar to the Event Monsters page. These monster versions of NPCs only occur in the mainstream story or related side quests (not 100% sure, I could be wrong) and their AI usually doesn't match a general monster type (if the monster NPC belongs to a more general monster type).

Using the above would allow a link to replace the monster tables in the hidden text boxes of some mainstream NPCs. Having monster tables in hidden text boxes makes a page do weird things when opening the text box, if the browser window has to squeeze it in next to the character info table on the right. Also, different browsers do different weird things, i.e., have the monster table overlap the character info table or push the monster table below the character info table (both of which look really unprofessional lol). Also, in Opera and IE the shadow monster table doesn't show any borders but does in Firefox when placed in a hidden text box. --ZRoc (Talk) 22:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Go for it :) I made a page for Nuadha (Monster) and Lucas (Monster) recently -- if you want to use a different naming scheme, go ahead; I didn't put much thought into it. Since they're technically not monsters in the real sense of the word lol. --- Angevon (Talk) 17:50, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Your right, "monster" isn't really the right word but it's what we use for anything that players can fight XD --ZRoc (Talk) 05:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Changed Kristell's page. Not only does the hidden text box for Generation 1 spoilers look better but all the section edit buttons are back on the page now that the monster table style template isn't on it anymore. --ZRoc (Talk) 11:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Q112 - Monster Data Templates

This is about the monster data templates and not the monster table style template.

For whatever reason, instead of starting a monster data template with {{{{{format}}} it has been replaced with {{{{{format|StyleMonster}}}. This reproduces the monster table on the data template page itself, with all the data properly arranged in the table, as it would be displayed on a page using that data template and the monster table style template. Nice and pretty, as well as being somewhat helpful as you can see how the data will be displayed (rather than going to a page that does this) except it causes a few major problems;

  1. If the monster style template needs to be edited then not only do all the normal (main namespace) pages, using that style template, get updated (and repeatedly for each use on a single page) but now every data template page is also updated. The already massive number of pages using that style template, including each repeated use on a single page, that gets updated is now doubled because the same number of data template pages need to update the style template being displayed on them as well. Even with the new server that's not a good idea.
  2. Using {{{{{format|StyleMonster}}} on a data template page makes it take longer for pages to load that use the data template. This is really noticeable on a page with a lot of repeated uses of the monster table (like the Wolf page). I assume that the software somehow pre-renders(?) a page before displaying it, I think that means it now pre-renders the monster table style template on the data template page (then ignores it) and then renders the style template again for the actual page using both the data and style template.
  3. When the wiki is running slow then opening a data template page takes longer if {{{{{format|StyleMonster}}} is used. This doesn't apply if you go directly into the data template's edit mode. If you edit an entire page then all the templates used on that page are listed as links at the bottom with an "edit" link next to them which goes directly to the template's edit mode. However, the monster table's have an edit button in their title bar which is far easier to use and goes to the data template's page and not its edit mode (this makes sense as you can look at the data before editing it and allows people to easily see any extra info that may be displayed only on the template's page).

Info on the data template page that is inside a pair of "noinclude" tags doesn't cause a problem as the noinclude tags only display what they contain between them on the page using those tags (that is, the data template page). Therefore whatever is inside "noinclude" tags is ignored when the data template is pre-rendered for use on a page calling that data template. Similarly, whatever is outside of a pair of "onlyinclude" tags is only displayed on the page using those tags (that is, the data template page) and therefore doesn't create a problem. If a monster table is really wanted on a data template page then under the data add "noinclude" tags and add the style and data templates inside them or put the data inside "onlyinclude" tags and add the style and data templates outside them. Note that, any changes made to the data template won't be displayed in its monster table until the data template page is saved, i.e., preview won't work. Also, displaying the monster style template on a data template page by using the "noinclude" or "onlyinclude" tags will still slow down opening the data template page (that is, problem 3 will still occur).

I have been changing monster data template pages that use {{{{{format|StyleMonster}}} to {{{{{format}}}. If someone wants the use of "noinclude" or "onlyinclude" tags to display the monster table on data template pages then you can add it =P --ZRoc (Talk) 16:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

ouch. well if it'll help the server, I'm all for it.-- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 22:58, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
I made a mistake, even using "noinclude" or "onlyinclude" tags to display the monster table on a data template page will still have those data template pages added to the job queue for pages needed to be updated if the monster table style template itself is edited and saved. It would be best if the monster table is not displayed on the monster data template pages at all. --ZRoc (Talk) 04:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Q113 Rare Color Items

So on Dragon Blade people have been putting up pictures of specially-colored versions of the item. I'm fine with this, but I was thinking maybe we can make a gallery sub-page for the special-colored pictures, like what ZRoc suggested for the appearance of clothing on the different races. So we'd put a note right under the item's in-game description: "For the various special colored versions, go here (link)" where the link goes to the subpage. Weapon pages are long enough as it is; they don't need eye candy on them. Agree/disagree? --- Angevon (Talk) 18:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd say yes since we've been doing the same for equipment pages. --Jay 18:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
concur -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 22:57, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Agree (but is already biased for the idea) =3 --ZRoc (Talk) 05:41, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Q114 Mabinogi General News Section

Can we unlock it? It's locked with news that isn't even allowed by policy in that section. It's going to make it harder for most players to navigate to the event page as well. I understand why it was locked, but there are editors like me who took the time to clear random edits out. This is what a wiki is all about... -- Jspillers | (Talk) 01:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

It's only locked for unregistered users... ~kotarou3 TALKCONTRIBS 06:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Q115 Name of Hat Types

We generally consider everything headgear with 1 def and 1 prot a helmet, but it causes edit wars on the Helmets List and Hats List pages with things like the Aladdin Hat which is a hat by name but has 1 def and 1 prot like a helmet. I think we need to come up with a new name for the hats with 1 def and 1 prot. We've got Heavy Gloves and Light Gloves to differentiate the types of gloves, so maybe Light Hats and Heavy Hats? --- Angevon (Talk) 21:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I believe it should be done. "Light Headgears" and "Heavy Headgears" sounds good to me, and won't have people arguing over the term hat or helmet, either. --Powder Rune 21:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
yeah... headgears would be better word to use...--chrissy of hailfire 07:54, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Q116 Templates for Item Grades and Dye Details

I created Template:Item Grades and Template:Dye Details after seeing the ones for repair costs. I was wondering if we should use them or if someone had more to add before we do. I was thinking of leaving a note for usage, such as

==[[Dye]] Details==
<!--Before you edit this section, please go [[Template:Dye Details|here]] for instructions on usage -->

or something along those lines so that people can learn how to correctly fill the dye table out (which I feel will be more confusing to users than the other templates). Any thoughts or suggestions? -- Powder Rune 03:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)