Mabinogi World Wiki is brought to you by Coty C., 808idiotz, our other patrons, and contributors like you!!
Want to make the wiki better? Contribute towards getting larger projects done on our Patreon!

Difference between revisions of "Talk:Elements"

From Mabinogi World Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
m (Fire and Lightning should not affect each other)
(Fire and Lightning should not affect each other)
Line 102: Line 102:
  
 
=== Fire and Lightning should not affect each other===
 
=== Fire and Lightning should not affect each other===
:Aside from the experiment done here: [http://forum.nexon.net/Mabinogi/forums/thread/1303360.aspx], the game itself states that there are no relationship between Fire and Lightning: "[b]Fire and Lightning Elemental Magic show no reaction" ([http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Understanding_of_Elementals], Section 4).
+
:Aside from the experiment done here: [http://forum.nexon.net/Mabinogi/forums/thread/1303360.aspx], the game itself states that there are no relationship between Fire and Lightning: "'''Fire and Lightning Elemental Magic show no reaction'''" ([http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Understanding_of_Elementals], Section 4).

Revision as of 21:03, 11 March 2010

List of Every Element's Strength and Weakness?

This page needs some help. Does anyone know what elements are effective vs. which so we can add that? I know Ice is good vs. Fire but that's all. --- Angevon 10:07, 21 May 2008 (PDT)

Afaik, Ice does 200% to Fire but Fire also does 200% to Ice. Same elementals attacking each other is severely reduced, but I don't know the numbers. I heard Fire does 150% to Lightning and Ice receives 150% from Lightning... but that can't be right. --- Gao 7:11PM, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

I believe Ice and Lightning have some effect on each other, but Fire and Lightning have no effect on each other at all. Read Understanding of Elementals for more info. If this book is accurate, fire has no effect to lightning and vice versa. But, water conducts electricity in rl, and ice is merely frozen water, thus I would assume lightning is strong against ice. My theories are simply based on reasoning, so you have the right to say that I am wrong with some proof that I am.

~Blyddenhonor

The japanese wiki has info on elements. From what I can make out, each elemental enchant gives you ~10% affinity for that element. Ice and fire deal more damage to each other. Lightning and fire have no effect on each other, and Lightning and ice deal about half as much extra damage to each other as fire and ice. Here's the page if you can read japanese: [1] (Scroll down to 属性 for the elemental formulas)Ziv 19:13, 25 May 2008 (PDT)

~Wolfen198

There is much more to elementals than just this, some of which makes no sense in any way form or fashion, this research was pioneered by me (KrystalTRO) on the forums and double checking and more in depth studies done through dakarians end here is the original research but ummm.... ill edit this later cause right now its saying "server is too busy" i forget the exact post number but look up "Elemental question.... not what you might think~" or something along those lines, and the continuation was written by Dakarian whihc i think was named "elementals and damage"



i seem to have way higher crit rate with icebolt when im fighting red skeletons, havent payed enough attention to be sure tho. Sozen Cratos Focker 07:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I cannot make guides, can someone take my research and make one?

Hello, its been awhile since i posted but i have done extensive research on elements a long time ago but never got around to making a guide in the wiki can someone make one using this forum post? http://forum.nexon.net/Mabinogi/forums/thread/1100115.aspx i would greatly appreciate it, I am KrystalTRO, but i am not able to make a guide, information i can gather, but guides... i cant write sorry. Just please make sure to give me proper credit thank you. I'm sorry but ive just lost my drive for these sorts of things now. Wolfen198 16:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

naming: element v elemental

i think this page, and the "element" box in all the monster tables should be renamed to elemental since that's the official terminology for it.Sozen Cratos Focker 02:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Where to obtain elemental enchants?

Where do we go to get these elemental enchants, or are they from random scrolls? 18:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The elemental stones look like the stones in the picture. They drop from monsters. If you kill enough Imps you'll get Lightning ones pretty commonly. ---Angevon 19:36, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Click on the elemental here and there is a small list of monsters that you can get them from. Note that the list doesn't include every single monster that drops said elemental. --Powder Rune 19:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate

I recall seeing a topic at the Nexon forums where someone took a Min>Max weapon and experimented with elementals to see what would happen. The general conclusion was that this article was very inaccurate and elementals behaved quite a lot differently than what was written here. As it is, it seems since I last saw this page it's gotten even worse... anyone have that link?--Mystickskye 11:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Mix and Match

Would there be any use in using multiple elements at once? Something like having 3 of each element equipped. MattTheWaz

Ratios

Since this is all a mess, perhaps this will clarify things (or perhaps not :P).

Let L be 100% lightning, I be 100% Ice, and F be 100% fire

Let l be 11% lightning affinity, i be 11% ice affinity, and f be 11% fire affinity.

The exact effects would be (and this goes for both attacking and recieving mind you)

l -> +5.5% vs I, +5.5% vs F, -11.1% vs L

i -> -11.1% vs I, +11.1% vs F, +5.5% vs L

f -> +11.1% vs I, -11.1% vs F, +5.5% vs L

These are the damage boosts/penaltys you get for attacking an opponent with FULL affinity to an element. You multiply the effect% by each element on your character, and mutliply the result by the affinity to get the final bonus/deduction.

Vs 1 element Formula: [(l*x)+(i*y)+(f*z)]*(Target Affinity Ratio) = Damage modifier.

X is the number of lightning, y is the number of ice, and z is the number of fire on your gear.

i, l, and f have the effects shown above. Target affinity Ratio is the amount of elemental affinity, in percent, that the target exibits. Keep in mind that [(l*x)+(i*y)+(f*z)] has 3 distinct values, one for each element. You need to calculate for each element seperately

The multielemental formula (which is only used in PvP) is more tricky, since you have to figure out the exact effects vs the oppenents effects. This comes out to a[(l*x)+(i*y)+(f*z)] + b[(l*x)+(i*y)+(f*z)] + c[(l*x)+(i*y)+(f*z)] Where a is the oppenents FIRE Moddifier, b is the opponents ICE modifier, and c is the opponents LIGHTNING modifier in accordance with [(l*x)+(i*y)+(f*z)] for the opponent. There are a total of 9 seperate values that must be added together to get the final modifier.

Simply put, differences in elementals raise the damage, and similaritys lower damage between the two.

It is possible to resist Lightning and one other element at a time, while being weak to the remaining one. Mixing fire and ice results in a damage bonus against lightning only. Furthermore the damage bonuses are ALWAYS both ways. The only way to get an edge is by using magic or alchemy, due to it having a 100% affinity regardless.

Furthermore, elemental modification comes in BEFORE defence and protection. So it can seem to do more or less than what the formula would initialy suggest. ie 100 damage vs 40 defence and 10% prot would normaly be 54 damage, but with a 20% elemental deduction it'd come out to 36 damage which appears to be a 33% reduction, despite being only 20%.

Tellos 21:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

only complicates it further when it's in a font where I and l are indistinguishable, but hitting the edit button helps with that. So, do elemental bonuses/deductions affect the crit bonus?--Sozen Cratos Focker 22:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Elementals scale the damage before anything else by raising/lowering it by a set percent. This includes critical, smash, windmill, magnum, etc. It does not effect your critical rate. Damage: (((Base Damage*Elemental*Critcal*Damage modifier) - defence) * (1-protection)) - Melee Shield Defence Bonus. Tellos 17:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
A different Multielemental formula uses a simpler system, albiet harder to list as an exact equation. An example would be 4l3i versus 3l4f. In this instance the damage modifier would be +20.2%. This is found by multiplying each elemental by each of the opponents corresponding elementals. In this case it'd be a 44% Lightning vs a 33% lightning (.444(-1)/3) -14.8%, 44% lightning vs 44% fire (.444(.5)*.4444) +9.8%, 33% Lightning vs 33% Ice (.333(.5)/3) +5.5%, and 44% Ice vs 44% Fire (.4444(1)*.4444) +19.7%. Each one is (ElemA/9)*(Effect)*(ElemB/9). This is also shown in single elemental ie 1l vs 9l comes out to -11.1% damage. Tellos 17:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
So, with a 100% crit bonus, if a firebolt that would have normaly done 100 damage were to crit on an all ice target with no def or protection, it would do 400 dmg?(Rephrased my question since both it and your response to it were not completely clear. I was talking about the damage boost from crit, not crit rate. I do seem to crit more when i have the elemental advantage, but not quite enough to say that it's not just coincidence)--Sozen Cratos Focker 09:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)--Sozen Cratos Focker 09:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Yeah it'd do 400 damage (100*2*2) since all damamge is raised and lowered before defence and protection. Tellos 15:03, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

All this is inaccurate.

Today, at the Mabiguru forums, we talked extensively about Elementals and their damage effects. The thread can be found here. [2].

We talked about how the information on this page and even on this very discussion page is not supported by the data one user recorded in this thread on the Nexon forums. [3]

There is an evident "cap" on how many Elementals you can stack against another specific element. We tried to deduce an "Elemental ratings system" from the user's odd data, but the coffin was nailed shut when we realized a major flaw to our system. In his or her results, Ice is strong against Lightning, yet Lightning isn't strong against Ice.

More tests have to be done to be sure of these claims. --Phunkie 05:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The tests that are done are unreliable because you are testing monsters. Please do the same tests by using the scientific method in a controlled enviroment (i.e. Alby Arena), with controlled dependent and independent variables using Players only. There must be consistency with the results between players and monsters before the results can be validated or invalidated.--Hengsheng120·TALKCONTRIBS 06:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
In that case, then I need to correct myself. The information here most definitely applies to players. In the case for monters, however, it's rather complicated. But I'll keep looking into this. --Phunkie 14:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
What a lot of players may not realise is that monsters can have affinitys outside normal ratios. That is to say that affinitys are not based in 1/9th and that any mix is possible ie 24% ice 72% lightning and 57.2% fire is possible for a monster. The formula still applies, but you still need the monsters EXACT elemental ratios. And please do not forget that elemental effect is factored in BEFORE defence and protection, so you need the exact defence and protection of the monster as well. Tellos 16:51, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
In case this needs clarifying, this means that, mathematicaly speaking, any combination of weakness and resistance is valid, excpet for mutualy exclusive sets (Fire+Ice Resist, Full Resist, Full Weakness). Furthermore it is impossible to rule out the possiblity that monsters can simply be programed with fixed damage multipliers for elements, which is often a common practice. Tellos 03:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Elements are factored in after Defense and Protection. Elemental multipliers affect Int (Funny how same element magics always do 1 damage to a 9 element enchanted person, regardless of the caster's int), which is factored in after Defense and Protection. As well, simply dividing the element-affected damage by the original damage gives us multiples of 11%. --Mabiwar 04:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
And @Hengsheng120, a lot of people would find the elemental bonus against monsters a lot more useful than against other players. All people pretty much kill monsters - but only a handful do PvP. --Mabiwar 05:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I doubt the damage formulas are different for in PvP. When doing any dammage related tests that aren't for a stat of a specific monster, it's better to use PvP because it's much easier to make it a controlled environment, and you can have more certainty about the target's stats.--Sozen Cratos Focker 20:37, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Saying that int being scaled proves when elements are factored in shows that you've not tested it yourself, and are simply thinking linearly. While that might be good for making a theory, it can't be presented as fact. How do you know it isn't a situation like ((Dmg(1-ele)-def)*(1-prot))+(int*(1-ele))? That would produce a 1 for all damage and int bonus comes in ex post facto in all calculations. Furthermore, the purpose of determining exact elemental values is to be sure of damage multipliers. Furthermore how do you intend to "divide the affected damage" vs a monster that you don't have exact values for? For all we know monsters have fixed damage multipliers/reductors in regards to elements instead of affinity rate. And it'd be counterintuitive to assume that monsters are restricted to a 1/9 base for the affinity, since things like wisps don't have any gear at all. For all intents and purposes, knowing the foes basic elemental affinity is enough. But as a wiki, the article should have accurate information since PvPrs and mages might want to know which element will be most efficient for a given situation. Tellos 02:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Do you have any raw experimental data to back up your claim? Mind showing it to us?

P.S. With certain "shenanigans", it is shown to us that monsters have equipment sets just like us. --Mabiwar 03:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Some monsters have equipment sets, Wisps do not. Also, the monster/game system information I've seen through the use of said ""shenanigans"" suggests that monsters do have equips do not get their elemental affinity from them, as does [what should be] common sense. --Sozen Cratos Focker 04:18, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Fire and Lightning should not affect each other

Aside from the experiment done here: [4], the game itself states that there are no relationship between Fire and Lightning: "Fire and Lightning Elemental Magic show no reaction" ([5], Section 4).