View source for Talk:Special Upgrade
|Thread title||Replies||Last modified|
|Celtic Tetra Cylinder Blue Special Upgrade||2||15:46, 29 September 2018|
|Page Order||0||16:31, 27 September 2018|
|Celtic Weapons||0||07:01, 24 April 2015|
|Cylinder||6||14:56, 3 January 2015|
|Shuriken S vs R||3||22:19, 31 July 2014|
|Devil Scythe R Type Bug?||6||11:03, 5 December 2013|
|Gloomy sunday special upgrades||2||22:47, 28 July 2013|
|Clarification for R Type+Dual Wield+WM?||4||18:04, 16 May 2013|
|Equation on this page?||0||01:34, 26 January 2013|
|S-Type and R-Type Comparison (One Handed Sword)||19||18:38, 3 September 2012|
|Doesn't the glow effect increase?||2||14:30, 9 July 2012|
|Earthquake Cylinder R type||1||12:50, 31 March 2012|
|Lance Special upgrades||1||00:03, 22 January 2012|
|Shields||8||19:02, 9 January 2012|
|Inventory||1||06:58, 10 October 2011|
|Battle mandolin||1||15:39, 31 May 2011|
|Dragon Blades and special upgrades?||1||07:43, 28 January 2011|
|Chaincasting wand||4||21:58, 21 January 2011|
|Ambiguous||1||23:59, 20 January 2011|
|Goibne Stone?||1||13:10, 20 January 2011|
The S type Special Upgrade of the Celtic Tetra Cylinder gets the exact same bonuses as the Tidal Wave, Volcano, Hurricane, and Earthquake Cylinders. Water Damage, Fire Damage, Barrier Spikes' HP and Frozen Blast duration, with the values copied from each one of the individual ones per rank. i.e. at Step 6 Blue, the Tetra Cylinder gets
Water damage +31
Fire Damage +19
Barrier Spikes' HP +370
Freezing Time +9sec
Not sure how it'd be best to add this to the table, without making it too long.
What if a column was added above the rest of them, that stretched from 'Water Cylinder' to 'Gospel Cylinder', and said in parenthesis (all effects)
(nothing) | Celtic Tetra Cylinder (All Effects) | 1h Axe | 1h Weapon | 2h Weapon | Wands & Staves | Water Cylinder | Fire Cylinders | Earthquake Cylinder | Hurricane Cylinder | Gospel Cylinder|
Demonic Hellfire and Abyss and Gospel aren't listed. What do they receive from special upgrades?
Hellfire and Abyss receive the same bonuses as Volcano and Tidal Wave respectively, no idea about gospel yet though. I suggest we change S type upgrades to list Water Cylinders instead of Tidal Wave, and do the same for Fire instead of Volcano.
Had a quick look on the forums, apparently, r-type is 62% crit damage at r6, s-type is +10 alchemical damage at s6. This seems feasible, though don't have any solid evidence so no guarantee that it's correct :/
Yeah, the line about Tidal Wave and Volcano, as well as the other elemental cylinders, should best be changed since there's multiple one-type elemental cylinders.
Well, it only needs to apply for Tidal Wave and Volcano. For the other elemental cylinders, there's only 1 of each type that can be spec upped (Earthquake and Hurricane) so for now, those can be left as is.
Inb4 future special upgradable wind and earth cylinders. Weren't there demonic versions of those as well as a neutral demonic that was unreleased?
They were in the code of a korea test build, but have never been released anywhere, they just use the tidal wave model with the stats of either the earthquake (for inner core) and hurricane (for the wind one I can't remember the name of). The neutral one was just a standard cylinder that would count as a demonic (still using tidal wave model)
Don't see it necessary to mention unreleased content such as that just yet, it'd probably just confuse people who look at the article
So I'm having a hard time understanding the comparison between S and R type special upgrades for Shuriken in regards to at what point it's better to R type one than to S Type it.
I understand that the S Type is the 2H bonus and the R Type is the 1H bonus, but could someone help me with the math to figure out the break even point for level 5 on this stuff? Also, what damage output are we talking about on normal hits vs critical hits at each level?
If it helps my damage with no other equipment is 303-475.
I apologize if it's a lot of math, but this will really help people out if anyone can chart it up for us.
Thank you in advance for any help that can be provided.
A shortcut should be to compare 14.5x(R-type bonus) to 3x(S-type bonus applied to your max damage with upgraded shuriken). (this is counting 10 hits with 30% critical hit rate)
The long, sure way would be to calculate min and max damage for 10 hits total, 3 of which are critical (7 normal, 3 crit) for each of the 2h S-type upgrades and the 1h R-type upgrades. Basically, if it's upgraded already, just add the R-type damage to yours with the shuriken. The S-type gives an added bonus to the critical damage (at rank 1 that's 250% total damage normally, at 2h s5 that's a total of 300%)
That's essentially the simplest way to check which is better for you. Your damage is high enough that the extra critical damage from the S-Type should overpower the flat damage bonus from R-Type. I recommend Excel or OpenOffice.org Calc to keep things organized.
According to my math you need 518 or greater max attack for R5 shurikens to be better than S5 shurikens. This goes for anything else that uses two hand values for S upgrade but 1 hand value for R upgrades. If you want the turning point for other special upgrade levels let me know.
EDIT: In reality the turning point is actually slightly lower due to balance not working the way most people thought it did but at this point the difference should be neglible.
I've R type upgraded my Devil Scythe and at step 3, it only provides and additional 18% critical damage. With this, I am assuming it is considered a One-Handed Weapon for R type yet still a Two-Handed Weapon for enchants since I have the Violent enchant on it. I have yet to S type upgrade a Devil Scythe.
It's considered 1 handed, despite obviously being held in two hands...at lesat for R-type. S-Type, I'm not sure but I would assume would be the same. I had an R5 (Worse investment ever btw...I want my stones back ._. . . .) and blew it up at an attempt at 6.
Ehh although I can no longer check my damage with mine, can you see if it's just a visual bug? Also if you do fail/succeed while adding another stone, check the numbers again.
I'm not sure how I would be able to check the damage precisely since there a many damage modifiers involved. Care to help?
oh yeah...well you could just find a few foxes, take your max and multiply it by smash rank's modifier...so say your max is 238, multiply it by 500% (5x) and get that number, then multiply that by critical rank (probably 1, so 1.5x). To check for R-Type Damage, use the same numbers but change the critical bonus form 1.5x to 1.68 (150%+18%), and that roughly gives you maximum damage that would be done. of course that's all in a perfect world with where everything is 0% and you can always hit your maximum damage...either that or find another one with the same stats and/or reforges, and do a few averages that way. If you know what's your average smash damage on critical, shouldn't be hard to see a nearly 20% difference.
I suck at math so if I wrong...correct me now. Of course, the faster (though risker) way to confirm it's one handed damage bonus or not is to special upgrade it again. Do that at your own risk, unless you can spare that much.
Alright so I used the less risky method that you provided and crunched some numbers. I damage-tested on White Spiders in Emain Macha with an Untamed Violent Devil Scythe R 3 Step.
Damage: 169 - 301
Balance : 80%
Since I was trying to find out whether the weapon's damage is considered One-Handed or Two-Handed, I predicted the damage for both Smash modifiers (one-handed and two-handed) and calculated the damage output.
OHSmash = One-Handed Smash
TWSmash = Two-Handed Smash
Smash w/ One-Handed Weapon w/o Special Upgrades
(301 dmg x 4.2 OHSmash) x 2.5 Crit = 3160 Dmg
Smash w/ One-Handed Weapon w/ 3 Step R
(301 dmg x 4.2 OHSmash) x 2.68 Crit = 3387 Dmg
Smash w/ Two-Handed Weapon w/o Special Upgrades
(301 dmg x 5.04 THSmash) x 2.5 Crit = 3793 Dmg
Smash w/ Two-Handed Weapon w/ 3 Step R
(301 dmg x 5.04 THSmash) x 2.76 Crit = 4187 Dmg
I regret to say this but it's not a visual bug since I was crit-smashing for 3387 Dmg at max. Although the damage output isn't considered Two-Handed, enchants that limit two-handed weapons seem to allow you to use said enchant on the Devil Scythe. I will probably try to get to Step 5 later in the future but I don't intend to do so any time soon.
Do they really simply add crit damg / base damg?... if so... what exactly makes the Gloomy Sunday good again?
unless people really like discord O.o;
Demonic Gloomy Sunday's Music Buff Effect upgrades aren't as good as the Lyre's, however, it comes with Music Buff Effect without the need for upgrades so it totals out to having more music buff effect than the Lyre. The special upgrades is not what makes Demonic Gloomy Sunday special, it's just a nice thing to have if you plan on using Dischord or regular melee with your instrument.
Confused about the stacking crit. On the Wiki page it specifically states that "When dual wielding R-Type weapons, the critical damage bonuses will add together when using single hit skills (i.e. using smash with 2 3R swords would give +36% critical damage)."
So does this mean that when you WM, it only uses the R bonus for 1 of your weapons? Or does this mean it averages it out?
Or does WM in fact use both of the S upgrades for 'double' damage?
Searched all over wiki/google/threads etc...couldn't find a specific post that led me to an answer - hoping for some clarification - thanks!
(BTW if this is the wrong place to post this I'm sorry - not sure how Wiki's work beyond "Type and search" lol)
Windmill is a single hit skill that can hit multiple targets at the same time.
When it says "single hit" it means as opposed to two hits, one from each sword. In other words, any time the two swords are used at the same time.
So are you saying that if you dual wield R type swords, the crit chance for each of them WILL add together for WM? Want clarification - a for 'certain' answer if you will, for me and anyone else who happens upon this in the future >.<
First of all, by your wording, I'm thinking you're confused about what R upgrade does. R upgrades don't raise the critical chance, but rather, adds effect to the mutiplier. (At r1 crit, you'll get 42% added to the 250% multiplier at R6 one handed weapon. When using skills, another 42% will stack if you're dual wielding, giving you 334% bonus)
It uses both of the R bonuses when both are R upgraded (2 R6 battle swords will give 84% critical bonus instead of 42%)
If you use a R sword and a S sword, then it will follow the dual wielding damage equation (S bonus added to the equation) plus the 42% when you crit, assuming it's R6 (see dualwielding page for more info.)
If you use both S, then you'll get the S bonus (both of them) added them into the dual wielding equation.
In your character window, the critical bonus (this is from the weapon itself, not the multiplier added from the R upgrade) will average out. This is noticeable with enchants. For example, assume that you're dual wielding two swords and at 80% crit. If you put Lizard enchant on one of the swords, you'll get 5 crit bonus on your character screen because only one sword is enchanted. If you get both enchanted with Lizard, then you'll get the 10 crit bonus.
On your character window, if your weapons have different S level and you're dual wielding them, the damage bonus will average out, but in skill equation, both damages will still apply.
Who made it and on what basis? By my thinking it's incorrect and the damage figures are well off what I get. I get similar figures to Inemnitable's further down on this page and I've double checked my equations so I'm inclined to side with myself and Inemnitable.
So as I was preparing for G13, I was numbercrunching involving both types, and saw that S-Type weapons seem to come on top always (well with 1-handed weapons anyways). If anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that S-Types would be much better on swords. Data:
- This data assumes Rank 1 Critical Hit on all data and Smash on the last row. It also assumes Critical Hit is activated.
- Formula I used (assumes no defence and either maximum or minimum, may be incorrect) ( ( Normal Damage + S-Type Damage Bonus ) * 5 ) * ( 250% + R-Type Critical Bonus (In %) )
- The Bonus is only for one or the other. If smash is not used, change 5 in the first part to 1.
- No upgrades of either type has 42-125 with 2.5 Critical Modifier
- 3 Upgrades on R-Type has 42-125 Damage with 2.68 Critical Modifier, S-Type has 48-138 Damage with 2.5 Critical Modifier
- 6 Upgrades on R-Type has 42-125 Damage with 2.92 Critical Modifier, S-Type has 57-156 Damage with 2.5 Critical Modifier
- Data is rounded up to the nearest Whole number.
|3 Upgrades, Normal Hit||113-335||120-345|
|6 Upgrades, Normal Hit||123-365||143-390|
|6 Upgrades, Smash||613-1825||713-1950|
In Conclusion, S-Type weapons seem to do more damage, both inside and outside of critical hits. If anyone wants to point out a mistake in my data, feel free to let me know.
If I had 300 base max damage and used a 75 damage broad sword +6S would be 401 Damage and 1002 critical damage (max). +6R would be 375 base max damage and 1095 base critical damage. Critical only becomes better as the base damage becomes extremely high, and R type only ends up being a lot better on 2 handers and bows.
Do note that only certain weapons can receive the special upgrade in the first place.
Ok thanks for that information, although I don't really see a lot of people with THAT high of max damage unless their in trans, using ego 2h/bow+high dex. I am not really aware of only certain weapons can get the special upgrade. Also, I was using a broadsword for my information (upgraded on highest critical though). It might be useful if we could maybe make a graph outlining how much each Type affects damage as you do more damage, so we could see where they even up and then where the other type becomes better
Players with capped str using an Oblivion set have 300 base damage. Players with capped dex and the same set have about 400 base.
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probably not going to tell me, but what exactly is the enchants?
Oblivion. I thought that'd be obvious. r9 prefix with +10 max that you spam on everything except the glove.
Last edit: 18:38, 3 September 2012
Here you go. Above the break even point, R does more damage on average.
S/R Break Even Points (Max Before Special Upgrade)
|1 Handed Axes||1 Handed Weapons||2 Handed Weapons||Dual Wield (Single Hit Base)|
thank you for the chart. However, remember that you are not guaranteed a critical hit, while the min and max damage increase you are guaranteed. It depends on your critical chance, so those with low critical might be better off with S type whilst those with high critical could go with R type
This chart assumes a 30% critical rate, and incorporates that rate into the calculation of average damage.
Yes, that's why I made a Dual Wield (Single Hit Base) column. If R effect didn't stack, the numbers in that column would be twice as high.
I know it assumes 30% chance, but some monsters can really make it hard to do critical hits on.
Certain skills ignore protection for calculating crit, though.
yeah I forgot. still I guess it just depends on playstyle. If I had better str and enchants, I'd probably change my mind. But even all that aside, as I said before, the increased damage from S Type is guaranteed, while the bigger increase from R Type occurs during criticals, which still have a ~30% chance of occuring on max crit.
Yeah regardless of which one does more damage during a crit, it's still, at max, a 30% chance....and w/o a crit the S type obviously does more damage. So 70% of the time it does more damage and when you DO get a crit with it, it's not a lot lower than an R type.
Really old thread, but with S, you may be doing more damage passively, but with R, you're doing % more damage. S5 vs R5 on let's say a 2h weapon.
+39 max vs +50% damage. Chances are, the 50% damage is a hell of a lot more than just the +39 max.
As in doesn't it glow even MORE past level 3 blue or red? I was pretty sure the glow was stronger at either +5 or +6, but there's nothing on the wiki about it. Seems most noticeable with swords.
Does this really add crit damage? I'm assuming that since there isn't a special entry for it, but it seems surprising to me if so. I would assume it did something fancy like a golem HP buff.
What do R and S type lance special upgrades increase? anyone know? o:
I was recently told by a friend that shields are also special upgradable. Apparently, not only will the shield glow, but your clothes will glow as well whenever it is either 3rd or 5th level. Can someone confirm this?
I was told by a Nexon employee that you can special upgrade a composite shield. I'm proffing one now to test it. just gotta jem upgrade then we're set.
No, special upgrade with upgrade stones. As sated in OP, it causes more than just the shield to glow. Again, I'm probably going to finish proffing tomorrow and will find out weather I got trolled or not by Nexon >.<
Just put the shield on the SU Anvil, if it says it can't be Special Upgraded then that's so, if it says that it need a Jewel Upgrade first, then it can be.
Ok, after I tried it for myself then told my friend he appologized and said that he did it to his dragon shield. Being as I traded my dragon shield for my composite, I can't test this. If anyone has a gem upgraded dragon shield, could you test this?
Shouldn't we add information on where a Special Upgraded item could be placed? (Not in Pet Invs, in Quest Inv, etc.)
It says available for special upgrade on this page, but on it's own page it says not available for special upgrade?
You can lose a Special upgrade. Say you already have one, and you failed, you will go back to 0 special upgrades. Nothing else change.
At the moment the articles says "You can perform the upgrade a maximum of 3 times." Now does this mean you're only allowed to attempt it 3 times or does it mean that you can try as many times as you want until you get to an upgrade level of 3? Also this isn't really ambiguous in the article, but after you start doing special upgrades, that specific equipment can no longer be put on pets and can only go in the bank right?
I was wondering what the exact purpose of the Goibne stone was. On the special upgrade page, it states directly .. "To perform a special upgrade you must have a weapon that has all 5 upgrades, as well as the jewel upgrade and have used the Goibne Stone on it."
But I have yet to see one, and I have already put on the first R-type Upgrade onto my Francisca. Will I need to find this stone to further upgrade it, or is it some other purpose entirely?