User talk:Angevon/ZRoc3

3rd Archive of my talk with User:ZRoc.

Missing Person

Hello =3. I've left a PM on the forums for you about my absence and my poor excuse for not letting you know before hand. Please forgive my stupidity but I panic easily and totally forgot to leave a message on my user page. Again, thank you for being concerned, that was nice (even if I don't deserve it for being so rude). --ZRoc (Talk) 08:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Crafting Requirements

In the style template used to create the Blacksmithing and Tailoring requirements tables in Methods to Obtain (i.e., Template:StyleSmithingDetailsBody and Template:StyleTailoringDetailsBody respectively) I'd like to add a ManualBankFee parameter in the Manual's Cost column, that would appear under the manual's shop price. Look at my guide's Blacksmithing and Tailoring sections to see how it appears. If any value is given to the parameter in an item's data template, such as "|ManualBankFee=1,500", then it will display as "Bank Trans. Fee: 1,500g". As no item's data template contains this parameter at the moment then all Blacksmithing and Tailoring requirements tables will have "Bank Trans. Fee: {{{ManualBankFee}}}g" appear under the manual's shop price. That may look untidy but it will serve to get people to add the parameter's value. If the manual's bank trans. fee is not known then "|ManualBankFee=?" can be used to display as "?g" under the manual's shop price. If the manual isn't sold by an NPC or the manual itself costs under 50,000g then "|ManualBankFee=" can be used to have nothing at all displayed under the manual's shop price. I didn't want to change the style templates straight away as they're used on a lot of pages and just in case this is a dumb idea I'd appreciate your opinion. --ZRoc (Talk) 20:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. User:Mackinz is right about unimplemented skills. Category:Melee combat skills includes Evasion which isn't implemented and should be in something like Category:Future Skills or Category:Future Melee Skills. He also mentions, on his talk page, Blaze in Category:Magic and Carpentry in Category:Life Skills. Also, shouldn't Category:Melee combat skills have all the words in it's name start with a capital letter and should it just be Category:Melee Skills? The same applies to Category:Archery Skills, i.e., using capital letters and shortening the name. --ZRoc (Talk) 21:06, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion (so it wasn't a dumb idea XD). I'll wait till later as you suggested.

Should I change the category names I mentioned above and also create a future skills category as well? If you want me to do the latter then should all future skills be lumped in that category or divided into the sub-categories used in the Skill category (but with future in their names)? --ZRoc (Talk) 21:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

What about the Alchemy category? The skills category mentions them and states that they aren't implemented so I don't really want to move that category from the skills category into the future skills category. Would it be better to just list the individual alchemy skills in the future skills category (while still keeping them in the Alchemy category as well) and leaving the Alchemy category where it is? --ZRoc (Talk) 06:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, will leave the Alchemy skills as they are till G9 comes out. --ZRoc (Talk) 04:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Designer Sets

At the moment, there are only 2 sets in Category:Designer Sets, so before anymore are added (if any ever are lol), instead of having the individual item and complete set image galleries (as is done on the Graceful Set page) would it be better to just have your complete set image gallery and a list of links to the individual items. The individual item galleries only repeat what is on the individual item pages already and your complete set gallery shows off all the items pretty well. This would also allow us to present a designer set page in a similar order to individual equipment item pages. That is, a Description section with a single image gallery at the top followed by a Limitations section. The Description section would include the information kept at present in the General Information section and have a list of links to the individual equipment items' pages. Obviously there won't be a description in italics under the complete set image gallery as none is given in-game. --ZRoc (Talk) 04:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

The complete set image gallery could have 8 equipped images when a design set can be worn by both genders, i.e., 4 for female characters and 4 for male characters. There may need to be a second image gallery if there is say a Human specific version and a Giant specific version of certain items in the set, e.g., the Valencia's Cross Line Plate armor and gauntlets come in Human and Giant versions and can be worn by both genders.

As the page is about a designer set, then the inventory images aren't important as a designer set is about the set as a whole, which only really happens when it is equipped. Similarly, the info on the page shouldn't just repeat info about individual items but should be about the designer set as a whole (e.g., Equipment Combination Effects or the enchant that only works on Graceful designer set items). Obviously, if a single item does have something unique or that is restricted to only a few equipment items then that probably could be included as it would effect the whole set's usefulness (e.g., armor or clothing that has passive defense properties). --ZRoc (Talk) 15:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at the Graceful Set page now and let me know what you think. --ZRoc (Talk) 15:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Have also changed the Sandra Sniper Suit Set page and it has a female/male image gallery. --ZRoc (Talk) 15:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I think I got it wrong by naming the category Designer Sets. I intended it to be a category for equipment sets that were meant to be a whole set and not just those created by designers (like the items listed on the Design Contest page). It isn't meant for every possible combination of equipment but there are equipment sets that don't actually have designer names, e.g., Bone Marine Armor equipment. Would there be a better name for this category?

Also, I just realised if a set has more than one race specific version of some or all of its equipment then there should be seperate pages for each set that has that race specific equipment. For example, the Valencia's Cross Line Plate set has armor that can be worn by Humans only and a version for Giants only, the same applies to the gauntlets but there is only one version of the boots which can be worn by either race (and there is no helmet). So, there should be a page for Valencia's Cross Line Plate Set (Human) and another for Valencia's Cross Line Plate (Giant) Set where each page contains its own race version for the armor and gauntlets but both pages have the same boots. Where a single version of an entire set can be worn by multiple races then only a single page should be made for that set. On the otherhand, whether equipment has gender specific versions or the same equipment can be worn by both genders, the different gender versions should be on the same page. --ZRoc (Talk) 05:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh well, I can't think of anything else either, so it will have to stay as it is for now. --ZRoc (Talk) 14:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Policy

Could you add [[Category:Wiki Resources]] to the bottom of the Mabinogi World Wiki:Policy page, please? --ZRoc (Talk) 07:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for adding it =3 (was going to thank you earlier but I forgot, sorry). --ZRoc (Talk) 00:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Used In and Methods to Obtain

• 1. The discussion for Q74 on the Q&A page seems to have ground to a halt. On an item's page in its Used In section may I change the production tables showing recipes / patterns / manuals / etc., that use that item as a material, into bulleted lists. Also, as with the Methods to Obtain section, I'd like to use sub-sections with the skill as a header instead of the type of equipment, as is used at present. That is, use Blacksmithing, Tailoring, etc., instead of Shields, Headgear, etc. Note that, food item pages already have all recipes listed in Cooking rather than the type of food created. I'm working on re-organising food pages at the moment and although the Used In sections have Cooking sub-sections they still have tables that not only have the recipe but physical changes and 5-star bonuses stats. The physical changes and 5-star bonuses stats are just as useless as the equipment stats given for blacksmithing and tailoring. The recipes may be helpful but again making a bulleted list of links means that info is only a click away. However, putting the type of cooking method in parentheses after the cooked items name may be helpful (rather than making sub-sections for Mixing, Baking, etc.).
• 2. I think I should move the present guide for Methods to Obtain to Methods to Obtain (Equipment) and create a Methods to Obtain (Non-Equipment) guide. Non-equipment items don't get special colors or enchants, so a Store Location section would be the same but a Monster Drops section would only require two columns, Name and Location. Only bulleted lists of locations for Fishing and Dungeon Rewards sections would be required, while the Gachapons sections would only require a bulleted list of gachapons. Also, many non-equipment items are obtained from gathering or hitting props which should have their own sections as they are usually the main way to obtain such items. Combining all this into one guide would make it overly long and complicated, however, I'd like your opinion as you may have a better idea of what to do. --ZRoc (Talk) 08:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Style Templates

    Hello, I haven't bothered asked your opinion in a while and this can't be allowed to continue =3.
    Earlier, I mentioned that the blank space produced by table style templates using wiki code instead of HTML code could be removed by adding an anchor immediately after and on the same line of a page as the style template. I think it was for pages using the shadow mission monster's table style templates but it was meant for all pages using table style templates that contained wiki code. However, there seems to be a simpler solution, I noticed in the "Used In" section of items, that for crafting an item the tables came in the form of a header style template, details style template and footer styler template. Most, if not all, the footer style templates only contain the exact same end table wiki code for transclusion, that is, "|}" (they may also contain something like Category:DataStyle but that isn't transcluded). Instead of using such a style footer template, I replaced it with the hard code itself which resulted in the table not having extra blank lines underneath (this appears to work for Firefox 3.5, Opera 10.1 and IE8). For example, at present we are using something like this;

{{StyleItemUsedInWearableHeader}}

{{DataBecky Witch Dress|format=StyleItemUsedInWearable}}

{{DataDaby Scots Plaid Wear for Men|format=StyleItemUsedInWearable}}

{{StyleItemUsedInWearableFooter}}

however, it can easily be changed to;

{{StyleItemUsedInWearableHeader}}

{{DataBecky Witch Dress|format=StyleItemUsedInWearable}}

{{DataDaby Scots Plaid Wear for Men|format=StyleItemUsedInWearable}}

|}

For a table created by a style template that doesn't have a seperate footer template then simply delete the end table wiki code from the template itself and add it as hard code on each page that uses the template, (i.e., immediately under the style template whereever it's used on a page).
    The above idea has the advantage of allowing all those footer style templates that only contain the same end table wiki code to be deleted from the wiki and besides, typing "|}" on a page is a lot easier than something like "{{StyleItemUsedInWearableFooter}}". Just in case this turns out to be another of my undesirable dumb ideas, I would then suggest deleting all those footer style templates and replacing them with a single style template (e.g. Template:EndTableWikiCode). Once created it should be locked for admins to only edit, as it only contains a really basic and tiny bit of code that should never need to be changed by a normal user. Also, it will be used on a hell of a lot of pages but that already applies to some of those footer style templates. However, using the hard code on each page would avoid this entirely, *hint*, *hint*.
    Although the problem of unwanted space under a table doesn't occur, the same should be done for footer style templates that only contain the end table HTML code (i.e "</table>"). That is, either use the hard code on each page (still easier to type in and would be consistent with the above suggestion) or a single footer style template should be created (e.g., Template:EndTableHTMLCode). It should also be taken into account that using wiki code is easier than HTML code for creating tables on a wiki and converting existing table style templates that use wiki code to HTML code would be counterproductive (as well as being a real pain in the...). --ZRoc (Talk) 00:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Oooooh, I've been waiting so long for someone else to say that about the Dead Eiry project and it's come from an admin too! I think your such a wonderful person *abject flattery*... oh hang on, I actually believe that, damn there goes all the fawning and grovelling. Oh well, it's nice that you agree, not that my user page doesn't already state that your cool or go overboard in expressing my dislike for the Dead Eiry project, heh. I don't really think the mana crystallization template is necessary, although at present it does what the Dead Eiry project was set-up for, so I can't blame Ikkisuki for doing it. Note that, the new server should initially make things run a lot faster but new servers have a habit of using up resources faster than expected. The more resources and quicker access to the wiki, then the more users will be prepared to edit and use up those resources, let alone add lots more pages. Sometime in the future a better server will always be desired (just ask the sysops at Wikipedia lol) and fixing something that is a resource hog (i.e., the Dead Eiry project) before that happens means getting a new server will be further in the future. Also, I think the different tables produced by the Dead Eiry style templates should be more similar, as all the different tables presented by the Dead Eiry project make the wiki look untidy (= unprofessional). For example, your shadow monster's style template has a much closer resemblance to tables used on the wiki than does the normal monster's style template. Also, why are rounded corners being used on many of the style templates from the Dead Eiry project when IE8 doesn't even display them with rounded corners. That means at least 70% of internet users can't see them. That 70% is being optimistic, it's probably much higher than that (sad but true how people can be so foolish, I can only hope more users of this wiki are smarter). Yay, I not only got to compliment you (actually you make that way to easy to do =3) but also to rant about the Dead Eiry project and Microsoft! =P --ZRoc (Talk) 03:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: Stalking

Then all that stalking wasn't for nothing, I feel better now. Wait, maybe I shouldn't be feeling better about stalking someone. Oh well, your blog and comic are worth visiting, you obviously have a good sense of humour, as well as a talent for writing and presentation. I'm sure your blog and comic get lots of visits without any advertising (people certainly seem to leave enough comments). Besides give me enough time and I'm sure I can find more embarrassing interesting stuff about you to put up on my user page. Maybe Fwuffles can help! Who needs self-advertising when you have nosy people like me around. I should have read your comments under the comics more carefully as the explanation of that name showed you know about Terry Prachett's works (ignore my question/recommendation regarding him in the last PM I sent you on the forums lol).
P.S. I thought no-one bothers to read other user pages except me and I do it to collect data for future stalking cause I like reading about what others are doing. In particular, I didn't think anyone would bother reading the fine print lol. --ZRoc (Talk) 07:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

"Used In" Section

    Please look at the "Used In" section on the Iron Ingot page. Note that, it has taken some mucking about but I think I've got the code I changed on that page looking consistent across Firefox, Opera and IE. The page is a compromise between my idea of having a bulleted list of links for the production processes an item is used in and what is being used in that section for said production processes. Tables are kept but only with the product name, materials required (in the format others said they wanted) and minimum skill rank required, where all other stats have been removed. As with the "Methods to Obtain" section, the sub-sections titles use the production process used rather than product type groups but product type groups still play a part. For sub-sections with short lists the tables are displayed as is but for long lists the tables are split into seperate product groups and made collapsible. Is this a useful compromise?
    I've used and created Dead Eiry style templates for this (without the footer templates XD). Will wait for the new server before trying anything different (as you suggested).
    This only deals with the "Used In" sub-sections that are involved in production, however, there are other things that an item can be used in. The "Used In" sub-sections should be given a standard layout which should be similar to the "Methods to Obtain" sub-sections, where possible. And yes, I'm volunteering to make guides for the "Used In" section. However, I think it needs input from others (as there was for the "Methods to Obtain" section) rather than me just using my own ideas. --ZRoc (Talk) 17:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: "Used In" Section

Remove the footer templates on the pages using them and replace it with the wiki end table code "|}". All of those footer templates only contain either the wiki end table code or the HTML end table code (i.e., "</table>"). You can change it as you come across the footer templates causing a problem, instead of changing them all at once, as your not changing an existing template. For templates that include the end table code in a single style template (i.e., with the rest of a table's code) then delete the end table code from the template and add the end code to the pages using that template. However, in this case, you'll need to do all the pages at once, that use that template, as the template won't display the table correctly without the table end code. For Template:StyleItemUsedInItemFooter the first solution will work just fine. --ZRoc (Talk) 16:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)