Mabinogi World Wiki is brought to you by Coty C., 808idiotz, our other patrons, and contributors like you!!
Want to make the wiki better? Contribute towards getting larger projects done on our Patreon!
Talk:Macha
- [View source↑]
- [History↑]
Well Pyrus, Paladins are part of divinity and spirit thingies. But now that you brought up Dark Knights...
Wasn't she originally "good" or something? My memory has lots of fragments, but I don't see how she made the Dark Knights if she was supposed to be good at first.
Dark Knight's aren't bad either. You start the game from a human-byes standpoint, but the book of revenge shows that the Fomors had their own agenda and struggle for life.
So what you guys are saying is that her warriors turned out to be Dark Knights in the end?
No, I'm saying Dark Knights are no more bad than Paladins are. And she's saying even if you put up a good mask, that doesn't mean your not bad.
I... I just want to know how she made the Dark Knights if she's supposed to be dead or something... My head is hurting real bad...
"She's there but not..."there"" sort of things...or perhaps "My body may be gone but my spirit is not"
stupid technicalities..
That I do not know, but what I do know is:
- Morrighan still plays a role while her body in Erinn is turned to stone.
- Nuadha is conscious in death and claims to be directing fate, Cichol is supposedly dead yet still speaks with Shakespear and maybe the player too? I don't remember that part.
Cichol doesn't speak in death I don't think, he comes back in full body at the end of Generation 12. They really need to fix that god damn Day of Liberation cutscene glitch.
I don't think they ever said Cichol came back to life, only that he was somehow back, for all we know he's still dead but communicating with Shakespear, I mean, Morrighan was capable of going to Another World, Shadow Realm, and Avon while she was a statue in Erinn. (Is she still a statue in Erinn? I recall her recovering somehow towards G13.)
The dark knight armor was obviously made before her suicide.
About the Aer thing, is there actually anything in the story that says Dark Knight armor is modified Paladin armor? The player's dark knight skills replace paladin skills, but in the quest to switch to Dark Knight, you're collecting the pieces of Dark Knight armor stolen by the Fomors(IIRC, the story says it originally belonged to Humans), not modifying your existing Paladin suit.
For the long story and attempt to clear up a buncha misconceptions:
Morrighan as a Statue: For starters the idea that Morrighan IS a statue is unrealistic seeing as there is one in every single dungeon, including dungeon instances. To add to that, G3 has some of them being destroyed so the idea would mean that she was being effectively killed on multiple occasions. The idea that she was a statue came from in-game literature, a book that speaks of a LEGEND of the goddess turning to stone. Given that she is not the statue itself, it would be more potentially accurate to conclude the statues are an extension of her power like conduits, nothing more.
Cichol's death and revival: To be honest, even after reviewing the storyline, details of Cichol's return to Falias are still unexplained. The only finite details of the mainstream are that within G11, Jenna uses the Brionac to attack Cichol, taking Cichol out of commission and apparently forcing him to pass Demigod:Shadow Spirit to the player. At the end of G12, Cichol returns to a seemingly abandoned Falias with the words, "It's been a while, Nuadha". As stated before, terms of this revival are not well explained. It could be possible that Jenna's ability to use the Brionac was too coarse to be fully effective or that Cichol never truly died in the first place, that possibly suggesting that either deities are incapable of death (Thus Morrighan being forced to seal Nuadha instead of kill him even after declaring she would rip his wings out) or that Cichol's true form was never there in the first place and what died was a decoy or something else entirely.
Goddess Macha and Dark Knights: To begin, Macha and Dark Knights have NO DIRECT CONNECTION WHATSOEVER! I have no idea what clown brought up the idea that Dark Knights are produced from Macha but they aren't. Let's just split that issue in half-
Macha: Macha as a Goddess was known to inspire soldiers in battle, synchronize their thoughts to make them more effective in combat. Her biggest occupational hazard was the ability to read minds...or more dangerous to her, read hearts. Her reason for rage and eventual suicide is pretty simple: She loved a guy, tried to stay faithful to the guy, cast away her powers and became human for the guy, got betrayed by the guy (because that always happens), cursed humankind because of the guy, and in bitterness threw herself into a lake (Wow...Loser~). What left behind was a curse that dealt heavy damage to the agriculture around former Emain Macha and they had to change the name of the city before anything turned around. The only fighting force connected to Macha is Dorca Feadhain, which is an elite group of warriors devoted to fighting for Macha's will. They are not connected to Dark Knights necessarily, and the name refers to the force, suggesting the contents of said force are subject to change at any given time.
Dark Knights: Dark Knights are similar to Knights of Light (for you study-dumbs, Paladins) in the way that they are basically just armors that have a mind of their own (Remember G2 Ciar Mythril armor with the big-ass wolf that wants you to prove yourself? Remember G3's side quest when the DK armor won't shut up every time you talk to an NPC?) and manifest from the user's spirit. What creates the difference is that while Paladin armor must be constructed using the blessings of Spirits/Mankind/Goddess, Dark Knight armor is a crudely constructed counterpart thought to be built by fomors to specifically counteract the Paladin. While armor of a Paladin manifests through the user's sense of righteousness (or some crap like that), Dark Knight armor will manifest by the user's sense of self-indulgence or immediate to long-term desire. Thus, one side is known as the Spirit of Order while the other is Spirit of Chaos. Please keep in mind that other than requiring Morrighan's approval/blessing to use Spirit of Order, deities have little to no connection with these transformations.
Oh and the reason you can't have both transformation types is simple both game-technically and story-wise: Game-technically having more than one tranformation that provides a partial hp/mp/stam recovery would make the game that much more unreasonably easier to deal with and Story-wise you had to be 100% purely righteous to use Spirit of Order, which means the moment you made yourself the slightest bit capable of manifesting Spirit of Chaos, you also forfeit your ability to use Spirit of Order.
Okay there are a lot of things wrong in your post, and not to be rude but they are and I'm going to go over them one by one.
- Morrighan
- Unrealistic is an opinion.
- They specifically said they made copies of statues identical to the real statue of her and placed them around Erinn in that book.
- As an extension to this, they only destroyed SOME of the Goddess Statues, there's no evidence any were the real ones or how many were really destroyed.
- It being called a legend is irrelevant, there can be true legends and there is nothing to suggest that book is or is not true.
- "Given that she is not the statue itself" is conjecture.
- Taking the book purely as poetic would be an assumption.
- "accurate to conclude the statues are an extension of her power like conduits, nothing more." is baseless.
- This isn't related to your post but I may also like to add that we don't ever actually see Morrighan in Erinn until G16, every other instance of her has been in Another World, Her Altar Room (don't say that is or is not anywhere because there is no proof), in the Shadow Realm, in Falias, in the Soul Stream, or in Avon. None of those places are in Erinn and the only time we ever see her in Erinn before G16 is in a flashback in G15 long before the wars.
- Cichol
- I agree with most of the first part of this but do have some problems, again some of this is just facts and not specifically aimed towards you.
- Calling it a revival or death is inaccurate because we don't really know what happened. As you said, Cichol gets attacked by Jenna, gives the Milletian some power, he disappears, he appears at Falias at the end of G12, he speaks to Shakespear in G16 from the crossroad. There is nothing really saying if he really died or survived, or if he is dead, that doesn't just mean he's dead in Erinn and still conscious in the other worlds. We don't see Cichol in Erinn after the incident, and only some accounts from fomors (the sidequest in G15) and by Jenna, Aer, etc claim he died without really knowing for sure how to explain what happened.
- A decoy Cichol would be an assumption, but is a good point.
- Again, we don't kno what death is like for gods, that may just be what happens when they die.
- Nuadha IS sealed.
- For now I'm going to ignore the connection between Macha and Dark Knights and get back to you on that.
- Macha
- Everything else about Macha is spot on besides the Dorca Feadhain part, where did you get that?
- Dark Knights
- Spot on except, Fomors are NOT related to the Dark Knights, they're third party.
- Dark Knights goals is to correct the past mistakes of humanity, not paladins specifically.
Uhm, Morrighan appears in Erinn at the end of G2, inside Barri Dungeon.
Good point, did she physically appear in Barri or as a vision or narration? As I said, at some point she got unsealed, where was this?
Physically, right in front of you and Price.
My speculation on Cichol still stands...if you wanna know it's that his "death" was planned and by giving the power to the Milletian, he has a way to return, hence while during Naudha's final battle with teh Milletian, a strange darkness fills up shadow spirit. And that is why he is alive now.
*scratches head at wall of text*
I'm lost... Exactly what did Dorca Feadhain mean again, and why did they attempt to ress Macha if she had no relationship to the Dark Knights whatsoever?
- Skips text wall*
Dorca Feadhain meant Army of Darkness, Macha is the Goddess of Destruction and could make the Dark Knights a lot stronger in battle if they managed to convince her.
Wow...lotta discussion happened while I was out, um...
I'll agree with the fact that my Statue Morrighan Theory is baseless and thus unreliable as truth. I just wanted to bring up the note that the idea of Morrighan literally still being a statue seems awkward considering she has, in a sense, appeared as something other than a statue on multiple occasions. Disregarding the fact that most of her appearances are in places other than Erinn, I'm just saying "Yeah...she's not a statue" As I did state in the earlier text, yes they destroyed SOME statues, not sure why that's being brought up for criticism when it simply attempts to support the note that yet again, Morrighan ISN'T a statue. I didn't say whether the book was true or false, simply that in terms of G1 and G3 it is from what I remember the ONLY ingame literature to state and/or support the idea that Morrighan had turned into a statue at some point in time. Short of that, it is only widely stated that the Statues protect Erinn from large-scale fomorian invasions.
Cichol's...(since we can't call it death/revival for sure) departure and return to the world is, as stated, unclear and thus difficult to debate if possible to begin with. It would probably be more convenient presently to leave this issue with "Cichol's a God, expect anything to be possible" and come back to it when/if future generations shed more light on this incident.
Regarding Macha, Dorca Feadhain is Army of Darkness, thank you for the correction/recap. This keyword is brought up during G3's Alby Dungeon Statue Restoration Cutscene in the Boss room (you know, when Ruairi kicks your ass for the 2nd time?) Conversations with NPCs (Mostly Tarlach and some Price/Meven/Aodhan) following that cutscene suggest it to be a very powerful army (Looking at it now, I may have had a misconception regarding their loyalty or purpose to Macha so if that is off-base I apologize). In the Cutscene itself, Cichol mentions to Ruairi, now turned Dark Knight, that his role is to lead Dorca Feadhain to Erinn and...(I guess cause mass havoc or something like that.)
Regarding Dark Knights, whether fomors are or are not a third-party to the Dark Knight existence was to my knowledge never quite explained. My basis of stating the armor was believed to be a weapon of fomors was the note that the Dark Knight-exclusive skill Control of Darkness literally uses Fomor Scrolls as a catalyst and that in order to obtain Dark Knight as a permanent change, you need to converse with a Black Wizard, which regards himself (well, not himself but the OTHER Black Wizard you run into during G1 Barri Brown) as a fomor.
As for the whole "correcting the past mistakes of humanity" gig, I think that was just an ideal that both Morgant and Ruairi shared, Morgant seeing issues with humanity as a whole as Lugh and Ruairi answering to all the twisted sh** that happened in Emain Macha starting with his old man all the way to Esras. The idea that Spirit of Chaos supports self-indulgence and selfishness was based on the cutscenes from Duncan's long-lost friend Ilis (Crippled and was granted the desire to be able to walk again) and literature text from a book of research records by names Punbar and Wallace (Researchers who wished to study the armor only to fall to desire and put on the armor themselves).
If you need me to cite my explanations, I can try to find something here and there.
In terms of Fomor Scrolls, in Korea they're called Evil Scrolls, not Fomor Scrolls. NA also mistranslated various instances of the word Demon was the word Fomor. Evil Scrolls were something the druids actually invented (I think Tarlach specifically), not the Fomors. The Fomors just use it themselves as well.
Can I point out at 0:09 of "c3_g12"_ending_sequence" video in the movie folder says "Rebirth Cichol"?
No it was not, Macha turning into a mermaid was said ingame, and I'm not sure but I think that music guy in town square thought Aer was the remains of Macha.