Old food tables: Finish, or replace?

I tested the stat growth formula on the page on my spirit weapon, and it appears to be completely correct.

Since we have the exact formula, the food tables are completely useless in their current state.

We should either fill them completely, or replace them with a table that just says which stat each item raises for each spirit.

Rough example of a possible layout for the second option:

Item		Blunt		Bow		Sword		Wand		Cylinder
Name	Price	M	F	M	F	M	F	M	F	M	F
Teddy Bear	150	str			int	dex			dex
name	price
name	price

(If I do this, I'll probably do something with cell colors to make it easier to read, make the table sortable, and break it up into several tables based on price range so the pages don't take too long to load)

I'm wondering if anyone has a preference for finishing or replacing the tables.

After you brought to light that the formula was on the wiki (I did not notice it... although it's been there for a while), I went on to create this super awesome calculator (requires javascript).

Although I support your motion to replace the tables, I don't think it should be replaced with a new table. There must be some way the server determines what stat is provided by an item... Although I can't see the pattern yet.

Yea, sry, I probably should have made the calculator myself before bringing that up. I think the stat selection is probably based on some pattern too, but we don't know what it is yet, and having all the information in one place could make it easier to figure out. Also, i think people will be more likely to help fill in the gaps if there's a simpler chart where they only need to record the stat and don't have to worry about the exact number that so many people were getting wrong values for due to hunger states and the Wednesday bonus. Unless the formula for which stat gets raised is already on a foreign wiki, we'll probably need a lot more data to figure that out. It's possible that it's based on price too, but it could also be based on the items name with a formula similar to the one that determines the color of character names. I hope it's not based on ID number...

Oh, I've actually been keeping a [Similar list] For my own spirit weapon. Basically because yeah, the current tables are ugly as *beep*...

I've already tried looking through the itemdb for an patterns, but there seems to be no correspondence between any items that provide the same stats.

I wish it were determined by ID; it would make the job a LOT easier.

If it were based on ID number, it might be easier to figure out, but it would be very hard to share what we know via the wiki since we're back to not discussing mods/data mining.

That item name vs character name color is a pretty good start. I'll try to see of I can find anything with that.

I just remembered why y i was going to rule out price for this: The stat that gets raised is the same on Wednesday. Also, items that are the same but with different prices seem to raise the same stat (according to the growth tables).

IIRC, the item duplicates with different prices appear individually in itemdb(with different ID#s), so unless i'm confusing items with monsters, we can rule out ID# too.

It could be just a coincidence that two different ids contributed to the same stat.

Or we could all be wrong and the list is server-sided. :C

I am wondering if it's possible that a certain update may have changed whatever stats an item give, since I have a Short Bow for one stat in my own list, and it's in another stat on the other list...And there's more items like that.

Certain items do have a "duplicate" version. From what I can tell, there are 2 versions of "Short Bow", which could result in both giving off different stats. Chances are, one of the two have probably been flushed out of the game by now, though.

Also note there are two version of every instrument (ones obtained after G16S2 are different than before) and two versions of all colors and grades of beam swords.

Also note there are two version of every instrument (ones obtained after G16S2 are different than before) and two versions of all colors and grades of beam swords.

No, there are not. Because they share the same itemid, the most recent one is inherited by the client. The older one is just redundant data.

Someone should check weather the stat selection is the same on foreign servers. If it's different, that probably means it's based on item name, and the apparently incorrect values were probably added by people who played the European version.

My two cents:

• The new calculator does not change what the tables' most useful purposes are.

1. 1. You can see at a glance which items give which stats.
   2. You can see at a glance which items to give to "max" a certain level.
   3. You can see at a glance what item prices are, to get as close to 1k as possible.

• None of these are done by the calculator, so that hasn't changed.
• The tables could be condensed down dramatically to indicate "item, buy price, highest level it maxes".
  • For this, each item that has multiple values should be listed separately.

1:Not really. If you're looking for items that give a stat, then yea; but if you're looking for the stat given by an item, you need to go through every tab and look through the list till you find that item.

2:Weather or not an item will give the max value is just based on what the max is(which is determined by lvl) and the growth formula(price , efficiency rank, lvl). The max value at each level is the same for every stat for every spirit, and the chart of those caps would of course be kept somewhere(probably both here(the page this talk page is associated with) and at the top of the page where the replacement chart(s) will go. The new table will most likely still be ordered by price, so the user can just find the price that would produce the max growth amount; all items with a higher price than that will produce the max.
This isn't really necessary, since it's easy to find the price that would produce the max, but It wouldn't waste much page space either, so we could expand the max for level table to include the price that would produce the max at each level for each efficiency rank like this:

Min price 4 max growth	LVL	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	.	.	.
	Max	6	14	20	25	32	.	.	.
Efficiency Rank	S	###	###	###	###	###	...
	A	###	###	###	###	###
	B	...
	C
	D

On second thought, rows should be switched with columns here(after clicking preview I realized the values are gonna get pretty wide at the end so it'd be better to have 7 columns and 50 rows than 7 rows and 5 columns).

3: The replacement table I proposed (when i started this discussion) covers that.

1. If you're looking for items that give a stat, you can either use the table I mentioned below or your initial table with a sort.
2. The entire point of knowing what item gives the max is so people don't have to look up from multiple tables to figure out which item they need. With the table you just mentioned, people would have to:
   1. Get the level of the stat they want to raise.
   2. Get the Efficiency Rank of the stat they want to raise.
   3. Get the min price from the table.
   4. Search the other table to figure out which item gives just more than that.
   5. Worry about gold vs time, since neither chart covers it!

I'm saying you could take care of 2, 3, 4, and 5 with the chart I mentioned down below. Your chart would be most useful for finding out what stat a specific item gives in addition to the item's price, my chart would be most useful for finding what item best improves a certain stat. Thus down below I proposed we use these 2 charts and call it a page. Although a reverse calculator wouldn't be too bad either as a third addition.

2: The item people "need" will not always be the one that gives the max; not everyone can afford to go for that every time. I don't know about you, but the way I plan to use the stat table is: make sure the list is sorted by price > determine the price that would get the most gain > look at everything lower than that price to see which items wouldn't cap out and be a total waste at the current lvl.

Alright, I'd like to see these old tables removed, so unless someone has another plan within a week, I'm going to replace 'em. Even if we come up with a "formula" for which stat an item relates to later, we'll still want to list each item for sake of searching. My plan:

• Like Sozen first mentioned, have one table that has each item, price, and growth stat.
• In addition, have another table that lists the "recommended" item for each weapon and level.
  • This item would provide maximum exp gain per feeding. For now, only items under 1k will be considered, since they cover the first 13 levels or so.
• This will turn the current 25 tables into 2 more useful tables. Example of the second table:

Level	MAX Gain	Blunt		Bow		Sword		Wand		Cylinder
		Male	Female	Male	Female	Male	Female	Male	Female	Male	Female
1	6	Teddy Bear
2	14
3	20

I meant to post this last week, but I must have clicked the wrong button:

Before we start implementing the item name, price, stat for each spirit table, we should decide weather to use just a table, or a data/style transclusion list similar to Monster_Defensive_Stats.

The recommended item table sounds like something that would cause a lot of edit wars. If there was an objective best item, we would have had a table like this years ago(this is not the first time something like this was suggested). Since spirit satisfaction increase is capped at 1 lvl per feed, the fastest way would be to go for the max stat gain every time, which is usually unreasonable because it's expensive; since stat growth is scaled logarithmicaly with price, the most cost/growth efficient way would be to go for the cheapest item that gives exp, which is unreasonable because you're not going to get anywhere raising the stat 1 point per feed.

I second Sozen's idea of using data templates to reduce mess.

And where does it get the data from?

Are you asking what the Template:Data___ are or who/how to fill that in? I'm picturing something along the lines of: {{Egofeeding|10 Sign|Str||Int|etc}} using your current design if we go by that format. Other than filling in the Str/Int/etc, all you'd need to do is build a column template and use the preexisting data templates for the price, name, and link parameter, like we do with the Weapon Lists page but on a smaller scale. Also, it would probably be helpful we made parameters in the data template, like, FemaleBowStat=Str, and allow toggle view of that on the Weapons template, if we want that transcluded as well. Of course, filling out the stat increase will take work like you have been doing unless there's another source of that data somewhere I am not aware of.

If you guys want to make the large data addition for every single item, be my guest. It looks like more trouble than it's worth, though.

Also, wouldn't that make filling in the entries a huge pain? They'd be scattered everywhere instead of on one page...

Where it would get the data from: We could either add parameters for each spirit type to the current item data templates, or make separate data templates for the spirit food stats. A separate template might be easier on the server since all the item's other data would not be getting passed to the table that doesn't use it, and it would be easier to add data to it since there'd be less scrolling/searching, but we'd be making a lot of new pages for these templates, and there would be a redundant price parameter(both the regular item data template and the food stats template would include the item's price). If there are any items where the differently priced versions give different stats, (afaik there are none, but I'd like to be prepared for anything) the separate template method may be cleaner; if we just append the current data templates, then we may still have to add a separate template for the special version of that item with just the food parameters(with the same parameter names so it can use the same style template in the table). Also, the parameter names would probably be shorter(in a template just for feeding stats, we can just name the parameters as weapon category plus M or F (example: bowM, bowF, bluntM, bluntF...) but if we put food data with the regular data, we may have to add something to the names to avoid confusion (example: egofoodBowM, egofoodBowF, egofoodBluntM, egofoodBluntF...).

I should probably have done this when I proposed the data/style method, but I was tired: Pros (of using data/style)

1. easier for editors to add data(with named parameters, the contributor doesn't have to keep track of the order the columns are in and count the pipes in the row)
2. it may be easier to change the format of the table when we need to (just edit the row style template and maybe the header, instead of changing each row individually)
3. we can more easily add conditional formatting (for visual efficiency), ie. make the text color vary depending on the stat, or make the cell background color represent the efficiency rank of that stat for that spirit.
4. we could use the info in more than one place without having to copy/paste each detail manually. For example, we could also add tables that only display info for one spirit coming from the same data templates, and we could add individual item tables (similar to what's at the bottom of Littlesnow's userpage) to the item's page.

I think I had more, but these were the main ones.

As for cons, nothing significant comes to mind so far. If anyone is worried that the coding may be complicated, don't be; I will probably take care of most if not all of the style code unless someone faster or with more free time beats me to it, and code for data will be fairly simple, and more user(data editor) friendly than a plain table would be.

Cons:

• Less experienced editors (the ones who filled in at lot of the old tables) will likely have a hard time filling in missing stats, and give up.
• ~1000 new pages (or whatever we decide on) for each item/price pair

If we already knew what stats were given for each item, this wouldn't be so much of an issue to me.

• I'm pretty sure the data/style method would make it easier for the less experienced editors(see pro 1). If we do this, we'll flesh out all the needed pages with blank parameters(or maybe question marks to show exactly where the data should go) for the unknown values, so all the editor will have to do is find the page for the item they just fed to their spirit and find their spirit type on that page. I'm fairly certain new users would find this less intimidating than navigating the pipe maze(sea of '|' characters) in a 12 column direct table. The formatting(style template) would be a lot more complicated, but that will be done by me and/or other experienced users who can handle code like this; the data editors (especially the inexperienced users) will not have to read, or edit any of that.
• As for the flood of new pages, we may or may not actually add a page for each item (we might just append this to the already existing data templates). Even if we do decide to put the feeding data on a separate page from the main data, the new pages aren't that big a deal; we already have individual pages for every monster and item, this won't be that different.

so all the editor will have to do is find the page

Do you not realize how confusing it is to find template pages without a magical edit link provided?

Ah, thanks for reminding me. We should discuss weather the "magical edit link" should be another column in the table, or a parenthetical in the item name column.

By the way, I just noticed you had already started compiling the plain table before I retyped my transclusion recommendation. I apologize for the inconvenience.

The plain table will make a good intermediate step regardless of whether it's the final version, so no worries.

Lets put what you have so far at the bottom of Spirit Weapon Item List.

I see you've been listing the ducat price in the price column for fomor weapons. Have checked to confirm that ducats are equivalent to gold? (ie. put the ducat value into the calculator and feed the item to your ego to see if the numbers match. Could also check by dropping the item and timing how long it stays on the ground before disappearing, and then doing the same thing on an item with a gold price close to the ducat price)

Yes, for the fomor weapons that I recorded, the price in ducats transferred directly to gold value. The Traveler's Outfits that are sold do not transfer 1 to 1, instead increasing from 2500 ducats to 18500 gold.

Separately, I've also confirmed the conversion formula between NPC value (selling the item) and "actual" value (buying the item). For the record, it's broken into 4 piecewise sections (starting with the actual value):

• 100 gold or less: x = y / 2
• 100 - 1000 gold: x = y / (2 + (y - 100) * 2 / 900)
  • Effectively, the multiplier adjusts linearly from 2 to 4.
• 1000 - 10000 gold: x = y / (4 + (y - 1000) * 6 / 9000)
  • Effectively, the multiplier adjusts linearly from 4 to 10.
• 10000 gold or more: x = y / 10

Where x is the NPC value and y is the "actual" value.

Based on this formula, my next (and last) step before the table's ready is to match all the values on the table against the NPC value listed for the item. The data from the item's page will be taken as correct.

FYI

Apparently updating causes edits in progress to get erased, so this might not be as detailed as it was originally.

• Doing something similar to Monster_Defensive_Stats looks to be a complete mess, since the information for the table is at best unknown and at worst not anywhere on the wiki.
• I'm currently 30% done converting the old 25 tables into one super table. You can see its progress on my User Page, comment on it, etc. At the very least, I see usefulness from it for ME. It may even give a clue as the how the stat is determined.
• The recommended item table can have a very objective best item for the first ~13 levels: the cheapest item under 1k that boosts the exp by the most. Beyond that, a reverse calculator would be useful to see what value something needs to have to "max" that stat.