Chapter 5

Shamala and Nightmare are part of G17: proof and proof

And so is Classic and Puppeteer.

Oneris, nothing in your posts proved anything other than time of release which were not at question. . . Infodude is correct, the puppeteer quest chains deserves to be labeled as G17 no less than Shamala and Nightmare. And the Fighter quest chain is also a part of G16, at that logic.

So you're saying that G17 is another 'empty' update like G4, G5, and G6. Content only, with no actual storyline.

In that case, I feel it's a bit unfair to Shamala and Nightmare, which Nexon made so much effort to be noticed and completed, that they are placed in such an obscure page as Sidequests under even the fished-up 'note in a bottle' sidequests.

I am proposing a separate page for such prologues and sidestories on a separate page, Mainstream Sidequests, to emphasize their importance.

Uhh...the only storyline present in C2 (G4 5 6) is...well Elves are revealed to have a lost power that they once had and the same thing applies to giant. That storyline is exclusive to them.

Actually, Falcon and Beast were G7S2, NA just got it early with Pioneers. G4-6 had no mainstream storyline.

Really? I don't keep up with other patch notes x.x...

Wait, so you're saying the Falcon and Beast Trans Quests are G4-6? Ohhh, that makes a lot of sense now...

Oh well, too bad they got retconned.

Yep...to a human's point of view, it's nothing special other than new lands to explore. Elves and Giants on the other hand, go out to "re-explore" the past and learn of ancient powers that they once possessed during the Giant-Elven Wars. No, they didn't get retconned. You can still access it, but since G2 is WAY easier...yeah...older characters can still access the old trans quest and may do it the hard way.

The only thing the new G2 incorporated was that Elves and Giants had a hidden power that needs to be unlocked through the ciar trial.

Final Hit = G4?

That's the only notable thing about G4...humans learn the lost art of the twin sword...something that wouldn't impact most human characters unless they want to hit and teleport. FH is kind of a dead skill to some.

I fail to see how Shamala or Nightmare are any more important than any other sidequest other than they give AP for rewards. In fact, now that the NA version doesn't require AP like the KR version, I don't see reason for it to be separate from the Sidequests page (like I originally proposed solely based on that fact).

And if we were to put a mainstream sidequests, what would even go in here? Only other sidequest I can think of relevant to any generation story wise is the underground waterway, as all the rest are side stories or completely irrelevant (like The violet, The Honey Drink, Golvan, Ascon). And if we DO move all those unimportant sidequests there, what then will be left of the Sidequests page?. . .

Exactly. Any of the sidequests pertaining to Mainstream NPC, like all the ones you listed will be moved to the new page.

And all of the remaining ones could be take out of spoiler tags, since none of them are anything past a single quest in length. The page is already kinda messy as it is, with spoiler tags and labels and quests not in spoiler tags and qualifiers for the mainstream quests and etc.

Personally, I'd prefer a separate page for each set of mainstream sidequests, formatted in the way that Shamala and Nightmare is currently formatted, but that may be too split up for your tastes.

PS: Also, I removed Age quests from that page because they're already in Beginner Quests

I think you mistook my bastaridzation as evidence they were relevant to the mainstream storyline which is untrue. . .

My point is, if we consider even those mainstream, then what ISN'T mainstream? And if we ONLY consider Underground Waterway, Shamala, and Nightmare mainstream, that's very few. I vote for moving Shamala and Nightmare back to sidequests, as the only reason I even considered moving it because it was a prerequisite of the Saga, which is incorrect.

I'm fine with giving them each separate quests provided we also gives quests, like those to obtain skills, their own pages.

Also, did you move the Age quests to beginner quests? Or did you just remove it altogether?

I meant essentially any quest on that page that is labeled under G#: XXXXX Sidequests. They're all of pretty long length, unlike the other quests on that page. Maybe the g15 one could be tacked onto...something...it's too short for its own page...whatev, but everything else is of a pretty good length. Have a single page for all of the sidequests for a generation or something.

Also, did you even look at the Beginner Quests (Human Uladh)#Coming-of-Age_Ceremony before you reverted my change? If none of the others in that list are sidequests, why is that one specifically?

For the aging quests, I was looking at Special:Contributions/Oneris, I apologize.

My point is, if we move all quests in released in chapter x to its own page, with aging quests gone, all there is left is notes in bottles (which should get its own item page to be honest) and four minor quests. Which to be honest, I think Kousai's Call is a part of G7.

If Duncan's Call level 250 quest is lumped in with Beginner Level and Aging, maybe we could dump the rest minus the fishing bottles and Kousai's Call in the same category?

Or we could take the Action quests from all the pages, and lump those in with these as 'Other', since they're all the same, except for their availability to giants. I really don't know...

I'd be okay for moving Kousai's call to G7 and the other quests minus the bottles to beginner quests, but I'd much rather:

• A: Remerge Shamala/Nightmare with Sidequests

or

• B: Give every single quest chain its own page. And I think it would be better to organize it by released in same chapter, not released in same generation. . . But again, own page for each would be better, under a common category.

if youre gonna do that, maybe i could request that you do so in a manner similar to saga-iria's episodes?

a page that lists them, and has a link to each in the list

We already have that, though.

if you mean this page Sidequests i think you misunderstood what i meant.. i mean a page thats got organisation like the saga page Generation 18. rather than a mess of quests all on the same page, it would be a set of links, all to separate pages, each of which would be a separate side quest

Oh, then I can agree to that.

I dunno, I like putting it all after the main generation it was released with, so Andras's Story and the Violets would be put after G9, as an alternative link at the top, so on the G9 page, you get a link at the top to the next generation, G10, and another one for G9 Sidequests.

No, anything, ANYTHING is better than for example, violet quest chain being on the G9 page. I HATE that and it just makes no sense at all. . . What is the logic behind that? That's like saying the destiny page should be on the G13 page.

G9 was a prerequisite for that quest, so those 2 quest chains are kinds linked. That's also why I'm not against calling Shamala mainstream.

So, to get rain casting, G10 is a prerequisite. The skill is now a part of the mainstream? I don't see how quest would differ in role than a skill in this kind of scenario.

Isn't getting raincasting an integral part of G10 that you couldn't skip even if you wanted to? I thought it was always part of the mainstream, like life drain.

pretty much this, yes, really bad example there, a better example of his point would be the quest to get shock up to rank F

That logic applies to shock even more because it's closely related to Brionac.

I'd say that while shock itself is a Mainstream Skill, the Shock rN->rF quest is closer to the old Paladin Passive Defense quest, in that it's triggered only after the main Generation is over, and is tied more closely to the skill itself than the Generation, ergo, it would be grouped under Skill Quests more than Generation Sidequests.

Luckily, we don't need to worry about it, because the Shock rF quest fits nicely on the Shock page.

I think the Main difference between the Shock rF and old Paladin Passive Defense quest versus the Puppeteer and Fighter and Shamala quests is that the Shock and PPD quests were focused around getting the skills, while Puppeteer and Fighter and Shamala were focused around a backstory and the skills were mere rewards for completion of quests. In effect, the Sidequest chains themselves would change none even if all of the skill rewards were removed.

I'd say we move those pages to its own and have the Gen pages link to them. I mean, its been done for Paladin PD and Dark Knight Quest.

I'll be fine if we do this:

• Move each sidequest to its own page.
• Use the current sidequests page as disambiguation, like the Saga page.
• ONLY link sidequests that need a mainstream quest before hand in the mainstream page.
  • Like you would link to "Andras' Story" in the G9 page because G9 is a requirement, but not "Grave with Violets placed on Top", because it is irrelevant to the story and completion of G9, nor does it need G9 as a requirement.

Above is assuming you specifically say they are irrelevant to the Generation quest in question.

Okay, so here is what is established/what I think:

• There is no Generation 18 as far as the storyline is concerned. The update is G18 but the Saga storyline is not, and Shamala/Nightmare are not G17.
  • The Saga Page should remain a disambiguation, just not labeled as Generation 18. G18 can still redirect to it to avoid confusion.
• NO sidequest should go on a Generation page, at most we can reference that you can start x sidequest at x point of a Generation quest. If you can start a sidequest independently of a generation quest, it does not deserve a mention on that generation quest's page.
• Sidequests page should not be removed but should be changed.

Here is what we have to vote on:

1. All Sidequests get readded to the Sidequests page, and Shamala/Nightmare is demoted since it is not a requirement of G18 as previously thought.
2. Or the Sidequests Page turns into a disambiguation page, similar to the Saga Page, and EVERY sidequest gets its own page (its either all or none), with the exception of the aging quests and etc that are considered beginner quests.
   • Note in the bottle should go on the note in bottle's item page. If its quests are named differently than the item, they should be redirected to the Note in Bottle page.

What we're iffy on is the layout of the newmenu table on the front page, discuss the above (for newmenu, scroll down in the thread.)

Edit: Double Post~

Most of the sidequest stuff looks like they could be moved elsewhere, but keep the page just to link to it, perhaps?

As for newmenu, either we have Saga header or put The Saga: Iria under Chapter 4?

Umm, you just paraphrased option #2 I mentioned. And I said to talk about the newmenu at the bottom part of the thread where there is already discussion for it. Personally, I think Saga should be its own header at the same status as "Chapter 4".

Why am I still watching this...that aside, and my stupid jetlag (;-;), I still suggest to place sidequests that relates to the completion of the generation to be either linked onto the same page (i.e. Andras's past) or at least linked else where so it is not lumped into that...sidequest page. It's hard enough to look for it to begin with and sidequest is such a broad term..

As was explained in this following bullet mentioned above:

• NO sidequest should go on a Generation page, at most we can reference that you can start x sidequest at x point of a Generation quest. If you can start a sidequest independently of a generation quest, it does not deserve a mention on that generation quest's page.

We're not saying it should go on a Generation page. We're saying it should go on its own page, but be linked from the Generation page.

By not mentioning the quest at all, how is anyone going to know it even exists? God knows how many non-editors even know of the existence of pages for keywords, much less keyword-linked sidequests. I mean, 'Grave with Violets' isn't even mentioned on Perrick's page, so if it were taken off the oh-so-cluttered Sidequests page and barred from being linked to on the G9 page, it would quite literally (and yes, I'm using that correctly) disappear from the knowledge of the rest of the wiki users.

I was just repeating an earlier line, but okay so lets link to the Commerce page on G15. Just saying, players not knowing about a feature is at fault of advertizing it on the main page, not including/mentioning it on a irrelevant page.

It was never mentioned that we ever considered delinking it form the Sidequests page. Just that it should either be given its own page that the sidequests page links to (if one quest gets its own page, they all deserve one), or all of the sidequests should remain on the sidequests page. But good point, I'll try to add violets to Pierrick's page later.

Are you talking about the Sidequests or Raincasting? Because the rainmaker dungeon you run for that skill introduces Possessed Cai as a villain, with is supposed to be a revelation in-story.

If you're talking about Shamala and Nightmare Generation Sidequests etc, then I'm with you.

Sidequests.

Isn't Kousai's Call the start of G7 though?

Kousai's call is part of G8. He let's you skip G7.