Talk:Advanced Heavy Stander

Naming

I'm a bit confused. Doesn't heavy stander counter melee attacks and not magic and range. But this skill counter all three types of attacks? -★Fifty★ 12:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think this topic should be renamed to "Advanced Passive Defense". Besides, it doesnt just qualify for HS.~ Shadowboy132

It's named Advanced Heavy Stander, because the "Heavy Stander" name implies that the monsters is literally a heavy stander and it clear to what it means to new people. I agree it should have some other name, but not "Advanced Passive Defense" because never really depends on the normal Passive Defense levels. It's also more work to do as you have list out Advanced Heavy Stander Advanced Mana Relfector, and Advanced Natural Shield for every monster that has all three, and most monsters have all three, but not all of them. Also notice that it is possible to stun the Guards (if you are ever lucky enough to get first hit and bypassing Intuition) until the Heavy Stander lv2 activates, but you cannot stun most other monsters with Advanced Heavy Stander. Thus, this name is just a generalization for all 3 types of Advanced Heavy Stander, and for specifics you can just say exactly it has, instead of listing everything out.--Hengsheng120 22:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the Guards have Lvl 3 HS but anyways.

Guards have Adv HS but how so? Its not logical for a being to have such a defense...

Lol, how about attacking it during server lag and see for yourself? I'm 100% certain they only have lv2 Heavy Stander and Advanced Heavy Stander.--Hengsheng120 10:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

before this discussion was started i already attacked them while in server lag. they stun for a fraction of a second through range and magic, so they have level TWO natural shield and mana reflector. they also have level TWO heavy stander because it doesn't activate 100%. but they cannot be knocked down o.o i kept hitting it and it didn't get knocked down. --Fruitrecruit

Even if it does have that, it cant deal damage. But erm whats the real point? ~ Shadowboy132

Perhaps 100% prot and high def, because mirage doesn't work.

1 Damage?

Does this cause monsters to only take 1 damage? --Kevin 07:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Though this just sounds like someone made up the name themselves without checking devCAT, it does have some reality in it. When monsters take 1 damage from melee, they have Heavy Stander level 3. If the monster doesn't go Ping and still only takes 1 damage, it's assumed that the monster has 100% protection. "Advanced Heavy Stander" just makes it so that they'll never flinch or get knocked back. --Zephyre 04:52, 16 March 2009 (EST)

I didn't understand crap you just said, but my point was that Desert Dragon does not take 1 damage. --Kevin 09:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Desert Dragon doesn't get knocked back, meaning it has "Advanced Heavy Stander". Advanced Heavy Stander does NOT mean they take 1 damage all the time, it only means they will Never get Knocked-Back. --Zephyre 05:19, 16 March 2009 (EST)

Okay, that makes alot more sense. --Kevin 09:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Erm why is it called Adv HS? I mean it doesnt always apply to Heavy Stander... ~ Shadowboy132

It's most noticable on melee attacks --Hengsheng120 09:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

its not a skill

I am almost 100% positive that this is not a skill and just a property of certain monsters, because wile looking through the game clients files i noticed that files with descrioptins of monsters have true/false things for nockback and nock down for each monster.

What does it say for Scarecrow?--Hengsheng120 12:56, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

scarecrow has them both set to true, but it has something under "extra data" that looks like it would be why it is not nocked back. not_interrupt_prob="0.95"

This is definitely not a skill. all of a monsters skills and ranks are listed in "FirstCreateStript" in race.xml, and there is nothing in like this in FirstCreateStript. scarecrow has a special property, that is not a skill, and stops nockback 95% of the time, all the other monsters listed on this page simply have the ability to be stunned turned off.--Sozen Cratos Focker 04:57, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

what's the difference in the data between dragons (no stun) and elf/giant guard (can be stunned)? (I'm also interested in the knockback data for the Ogre Warriors in Imp's dream event.) Also there is no "skill" the description and only category. Can you classify no knock back as a single property that can be written about? Can you make that property simple for a novice to understand?--Hengsheng120 05:04, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

in "StringID", it says ".../no_delay/..." for guards and dragons, it says ".../no_hitmotion/..." for dragons but not for guards. Im guessing this means niether of them can actualy be stunned, and dragons have no flinch animation, guards ocasionaly play the flinch animation even though they are not stunned.--Sozen Cratos Focker 05:27, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

".../no_hitmotion/..." just tells us that when a dragon uses a normal attack, you don't see anything happen. And dragons can't normal attack anyways ~kotarou3 ^TALK_CONTRIBS 07:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

actually, that was phrased wrong. it's not that "no knock back" is a property that these monsters have, to be more exact, "knock back" is a property that all of these monsters(excluding scarecrow) lack.--Sozen Cratos Focker 05:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeti?

The Yeti does not have this skill; Removed from list. BladeBlade 16:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

it's not a skill--Sozen Cratos Focker 19:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The Yeti does not have this EFFECT?; Removed from list?

The Yeti doesn't not have the ability to be knocked back/down--Sozen Cratos Focker 16:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Which is what I was saying. BladeBlade 04:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

New Name Suggestion

Cancel Displacement or Displacement Cancel, for those who can't see that "heavy stander" has a literal meaning here and try to compare it to the regular heavy stander. Knockdown cancel doesn't work because the name doesn't apply to stun or a push-back, "resistance" implies that it's still possible to do so.Forget it.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 19:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds too complicated, would just confuse the people who can't comprehend Advanced Heavy Stander. Why not something like, "Knockback Negated"? --BladeBlade 01:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

How about, "KnockBack Resistance" KBR? Sounds efficient. --Miyuna 03:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Burn-resistant things can still be burnt; Fireproof things can't be. --BladeBlade 05:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The scarecrow can be knockback, but it resists knockback. --Miyuna 13:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"KnockBack Cancellation"?--Leyuu 13:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

If we use Knockback resistance, then we also need stun resistance too. AHS doesn't include plants btw, because they are inherently immobile and they get stunned, i dunno who started that to confuse ppl.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 14:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I suppose Knockback resistance and Stun Resistance can have its own separate page. --Miyuna 14:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Are Knockback res. and Stun Res. separate skills, though? --- Angevon (Talk) 16:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

And don't get knockback confused with push back or knockdown. You can always knockdown monsters passive defense, but not ahs. You can't pushback or stun a someone with final hit or beserk/outrage status very well, but you can knockdown them. You can't stun a scarecrow but you can push it back and knock it down with enough hits. Oh and you can stun and knockdown a plant (they get uprooted), but you can't push it back.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 17:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The term "cancellation" implies that it was going to happen and then stopped which is not the case(except maybe with the scarecrow), for these monsters, the processes for knockdown /pushback just don't exist. This isn't an ability, it's the lack of an ability that almost everything else has. This should go back to being nothing more than a one line comment in the monster's notes box. The Scarecrow had a unique property (which was not a skill) that cancelled 95% of all interruptions from attacks and another that changed the WindMill penalty to 0% which caused many people to speculate that it had a different WM skill.--Sozen Cratos Focker 00:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You can knock down a monster when you reduce it's hp to zero. This means that at least for all monsters that can be killed there is a specific knockdown animation sequence. It's very confusing when you tell the average player "oh... this monsters doesn't have the property of knockdown." The gonna always tell me to explain that a second or third time. Much simpler to just tell them it can't be knocked down while it's alive.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 17:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Displaying a knockdown animation is not the same thing as being knocked down. Actual knockdown does not exist for these guys. As for newbies asking for explanations, I'm not saying we should put the whole explanation into the page, I'm just saying we shouldn't call it something it's not. A simple "this monster cannot be knocked down" for glass and "this monster cannot be knocked down or pushed back" for dragons in the notes section like we used to have would suffice.--Sozen Cratos Focker 17:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

You do that, and put a delete tag on this page to see if it works. o.o --Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 23:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to mark it for deletion myself because when I see someone[that isn't notorious for vandalism] write a lot about something that's completely made up/speculation, I decide that i will have nothing to do with it other than spamming objections in the talk page. Maybe I'll to that after I make a page about "pain" and move some stuff from here to it. This wasn't made by shadowboy was it?--Sozen Cratos Focker 05:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Wait, you started this page? You don't seem like the type who'd make stuff up in a wiki article.--Sozen Cratos Focker 06:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Nope, While technically i created this page, I didn't actually create the original article for it. What i did do was suggest a possibility (at the time i called an advanced form of heavy stander because there was no better name) for a no knockdown type of defense on the PDs (I was actually thinking about level 4,5,6 PDs just before lol, but came to the conclusion that there was only one factor for no knockdown) on the Heavy Stander page due to the elf guard/giant guard pd debate with User_talk:Voichi. Then Ember Incubus wrote and created an individual unsatisfactory article for this with the name Advanced heavy stander, which is not standard in itself. Naturally, being someone who likes correct format, I did not know how to move an article back then, so i just blanked the page created by Ember Incubus, and put a redirected to this article (which the old one is now deleted along with history). I did rewrite this article with my interpretation of it very soon afterwards, though because the article was already there, I never actually meant to create an individual article for it. "advanced form of heavy stander" aka knockdown factor stuff would probably only exist as brief description on the heavy stander page if was only me doing it. --Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 06:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

There is official version of this in the client files, something written by nexon as Knockdown Gauge (see IR), also suggestion by someone it's like a knockdown timer and that it determines when monsters can be knocked down, or the behavior of the monster when being knocked down.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 06:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I actually, don't mind this article being deleted btw, but i would require tons of work and editing the monster template, which i don't have access too.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 07:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Nice find on the IR details btw, and a semi-sarcastic thankyou for giving me more work to do with that page... now that it's clear how complex the skill's rank effects are, we have to update that list with the ranks each monster has, add all the other monsters that have it past rank E to the list, make a list of the few monsters that don't have it, and do a bunch of tests to find out the exact meaning of "knockback guage", for now, i'm guessing it has to do with your weapon's atk speed/hit count, since it doesn't make much sense for activation rate to be based on how close the attacker is to being knocked back...--Sozen Cratos Focker 07:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Knockdown guage is probably a server set item (and there is so many things we will not know unless we actually look at the server files), just like and "blowaway", "shoved" is. I don't think there's much information in the client files about that. The only thing we see are animations of the monsters.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 07:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

What I am guessing (sorry for the new topic, it got a bit too the right), is that knockback guage is the measure of force between a monster. Don't take my word, what I say is just a theory but maybe every attack has a certain number. Maybe like every attack has a number (theory) of 1-5 whereas, 1-3 is knock back and 4-5 is knock down. Certain attacks have a certain numerical value and monster accumulate it as they get hit. While some skills like smash or windmill has an automatic knockback numerical value so the monster is guaranteed a knockdown. There might also be a 2nd timer that activates when a monster is knock back/knock down that runs in a short while that allow players to chain their attacks but the numbers still accumulate past a certain threshold (which would explain how just slashing once would knock these monsters back), and if no successful attack is made on the monster during the time frame, it enters its "recover animation" in which if attack it cancels it outright and players get unfortunate retaliation. Of course, this is just a theory. --Miyuna 10:11, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, judjing from the new IR info, it's out of 100 like i originally guessed, not out of 5, and it's impossible for a number between 20% & 50% of the knockdown number to be the pushback number(See the wall of text i put toward the bottom of animal taming talk page for details).--Sozen Cratos Focker 20:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't it count? It doesn't have stun or knockback resistance, but it does have has Knockdown Immunity. Its also immune to Pummel.

It gets pushed back, but not knockdown.

I said that.

oh...must have misread...anyways, yes. It would count and be lumped into this category.

Vote?

I have seen it "jump" back on multiple pushbacks. I think that's glas being knocked back.

It doesn't jump. It just stomps backward, body upright, and makes a loud screeching sound. That's supposed to be its knockback animation; its pretty obvious with KB attacks.

no...it "jumps." it's like...umm...well I can't exactly explain it, but on multiple knockbacks, it like, hops up and back.

Oh, right I remember that...

I think that's how it reads multiple KBs at once.

Since the naming for this is unofficial, and since it doesn't have a name since it is not a monster skill, shouldn't we name it something less confusing? Like Knockback Immunity?

It comprises 3 different character states:

Down Immune

Stun Immune

No Interrupt

Interrupt - Having skills forcibly canceled.

Stun - Hit Stun

Down - Push back and knock down.

There are 3 specific tiers for each.

1 - Normal interaction

2 - Resistant, reduced ability to be stunned/downed/interrupted. May take several hits. (Final Hit is Stun Resistant and Down Resistant)

3 - Total Immunity.

Just immunity then?

Immunity is a vague term. If you want to get super technical and make a page about that stuff then by all means.

Do you have any ideas for the name? I can't think of something that would categorize all of them but will not be vague. On the other hand, we can rename this page immunity and divide up the page between Knockdown Immunity, Stun Immunity, and Uninterruption. However, in that case we'd have to specify which of the three they have on the monster data templates. (We can probably make different skill icons if necessary to not confuse people.)

Bump.

What's a term that means all three states...?

The typo for it is that the Carnivorous Plant does NOT have a heavy stander/Advanced Heavy Stander passive skill. I find it weird that plant-like creatures except for the Carnivorous Plant are not on the thread for this. Also, the plant creatures are plants, they cannot move for that reason. But, If you do keep it, please add the other plant-creatures that are stuck to the ground.

Why do you say they don't have Adv Heavy Stander? Are you confusing it with Heavy Stander? They aren't the same thing.

Because there's only one plant-type creature: Carnivorous Plant.

^ was that a response to me or Jpman45? lol :C

Entire thread.

Im sorry, Im kind of new to this. But if you fight them, the only ability they have is to not be knocked back. However, if you fight them they don't "PING!" when you use knockback skills. It actually just stuns them for around 0.7seconds.

Also, Infodude575, Yes there are different plants. However, They have not been released in the American Mabinogi. But, most threads that have more than just the American version, list the fact of that. I'm saying that Korea has different plant creatures, so why not add those? If they do why not specifically say that they're in the Korean version or non American versions?

I believe you can still stun the plants. They have knockback resistance when is what players have during Final Hit.

@Jpman45:

“	"Advanced Heavy Stander" is a player-based term for the perceived inherent ability of monster that nullifies virtually all the knockdown, push-back, and stun of any attack.	„

Yeah the name itself is rather confusing since some can easily misinterpret HS/AHS. Regardless, HS causes "ping", AHS gives knockback resistance.

As for the other plant species, PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

AHS gives knockback and stun immune

Knockback/stun resistance is different.

Wut Tellos said.

Alright I understand now. I did not know that a ping didnt need to happen. However, The reason i said this is because most of the mobs that use AHS 'Ping' when hit with firebolt, smash, windmill, stomp, etc. so thats why i thought that it should have been changed.

That's probably because the mobs you're thinking of with advanced heavy stander ALSO posses heavy stander, mana reflector and/or natural shield too. There's certainly a few that do.