|Thread title||Replies||Last modified|
|Can I delete this?||2||15:43, 23 August 2015|
|Wouldn't that mean you need a ref link on everything?||18||12:10, 24 March 2015|
|.3.||3||20:29, 20 February 2015|
I've personally confirmed that you get coins from 8 of the sources there. If you consider anything created by Nexon and documented by users as plagiarism, then wouldn't that make the entire wiki plagiarized?
Right now, we only use the ref tags for things taken word-for-word from announcements.
After talking with the wiki staff on IRC its clear to me that they don't care about the community after the way they talked about it. An official report has been sent to Sabina with this matter for review of MWorld's position as a Fan Site. I'm done working on the wiki, if this is how they treat the community and their editors then they should consider just making the website private. At this point this isn't a publicly available resource, made by the public for the public, its more of a biased staff ran webpage where they only want to see content that they think "looks ok".
About your topic, plagiarism is the main source of copyright lawsuits worldwide, crime or not its used as an excuse by just about everyone because its very easy to use. That being said, just because Nexon released it to the public domain, doesn't make it any right to practically copy/paste information and not state where it came from. Looking at a wiki you want to know what the page is talking about, why, how and most importantly you want to see references and sources.
I'm still confused why you would target only the Mabi Coin page for reference tagging. Does the information on the contents of the 7th Anniversary Gift Boxes not also originate from a Nexon-created source? What about the details of the Lunar Fortune Event? Or the prizes from the Celebrate St. Patrick's Day Event (2015)?
It's already understood that aside from the templates and coding and some user page fan art, the editors of the wiki own absolutely none of the information that we've documented, that the entirety of the site is already copyrighted by Nexon. With that in mind, we use reference tags to denote what text is a direct quote from Nexon-published announcements, and what text is a rewording by wiki users.
The information on the Mabi Coins page that you insist of reference tagging reads
- 7th Anniversary Rock Paper Scissors Event 5 Coins (Play 20 games total), 10 Coins (Play 100 games total), 10 Coins (Play 200 games total), 15 Coins (Play 300 games total)
- Mabinogi 7th Anniversary Event Quest: 1 Coin (one time only)
- The Suspicious Milletian Quest: 5 Coins (one time only)
- Hello Fellow Quest: 5 Coins (one time only)
- The Fattening (Daily Event Quest): 1 Coin (once per day)
- Roulette Game (Daily Event Quest): 1 Coin (once per day)
- Hammer Game (Daily Event Quest): 1 Coin (once per day)
- Sitting in front of any campfire within the event area for 10 minutes: 1 Coin (once per day)
while the event announcement text reads
Titles with Mabi Coins
- Play 20 Rock, Paper, Scissor matches:
- Title: Rock Paper Scissors Beginner
- 5 Mabi Coins
- Play 100 Rock, Paper, Scissor matches:
- Title: Rock Paper Scissors Novice
- 10 Mabi Coins
- Play 200 Rock Paper Scissors matches:
- Title: Rock Paper Scissors Expert
- 10 Mabi Coins
- Play 300 Rock, Paper, Scissor matches:
- Title: Rock Paper Scissors Master
- 15 Mabi Coins
They are absolutely not alike, and thus not plagiarized, since it is understood that aside from the rewording, the information already belongs to Nexon. If you wish to see an example of where there should possibly be a reference tag for lack of rewording, take at look at MabiLand 7th Anniversary Celebration Event#Rock Paper Scissors Details, a place where I did indeed neglect to properly reword text from the event announcement.
I'm just gonna go point at other wikis made by fans, where referencing doesn't exist at all and people use screenshots of animoos without asking the actual creators.
That is all.
"Other people are worse" isn't really an argument, though.
Then I'm just gonna go point at our wiki in general, and how we use a lot of mabinogi images without asking Nexon. But Nexon doesn't seem to care anyways, because the forum mods link the wiki, use images from the wiki and let forumers link images from the wiki as well.
You are awful at this. lol
Nexon really doesn't care, though. It's not like I haven't spoken with Sabina about this sort of stuff before.
If Nexon doesn't care, then you don't have to care either do you, exactly my point, you think no one cares so you act as you please while your admin powers allow for that it doesn't make it any more rightful to do. You've shown serious disrespect towards the Mabinogi community in general, ample evidence has been collected and forwarded to the CM team for review of your position as a fan site and your rights to having links posted on the Nexon Forums, furthermore you can ban me for all that I care I'm done arguing, you're not in the right here, yet you're blinded by your biased selfish opinions because this is your turf to play on.
I have yet to see anyone but you express a strong opinion about this, or really any opinion at all that has been about the topic at hand rather than the existence of this discussion.
The only thing I displayed during our conversation was my disagreement with your approach. Your following our guidelines for use of this site (in regard to disagreeing with moderators, specifically) is far more important and relevant than your aggressing threats based on second-hand legal knowledge.
I gave an opinion when you asked why it may have been removed, that it was ugly and extraneous, but that was not intended to represent a final stance on the matter as you so obviously took it.
You are welcome to submit what you want to them, but if you want to talk about bias, I assume it lies therein.
You should be grateful enough that Nexon agreed to even list you as a fan site after all you guys pulled off with the data mining, which btw, is still a thing, and while you think they might not care, that was actually discussed not that long ago with the VFM's and CM's.
Everyone who knows me even slightly knows that I say what I think, and that I hold nothing inside or against anyone in particular, don't take anything I say personally because I'm not attacking anyone in particular.
Saying that it was ugly and extraneous is not a valid reason to remove a reference, it could have simply been edited to look better. You may think its common knowledge that people would know where it came from but, you forget that a lot of new players check the wiki before they even check anything else because that's what the majority of players will tell them to do due to the generic "Nexon support sucks, they won't help with anything." feel that the community seems to have adopted.
Look at the adventurer seal page, its all player collected info, but the main site still listed how to obtain them and it has a reference, its exactly the same thing as here practically. I had placed one simple reference at the end of the RPS coin rewards, sure I didn't make a reference header at the bottom and it wasn't pretty but it could have simply been edited instead of removed.
Saying that the information from the reference is is extraneous is a lie. http://mabinogi.nexon.net/News/Announcements/1/00IMV/mabiland-7th-anniversary-celebration | Click RPS then Rewards.
I made the entire page based on this, the quest details were added after.
I'm quite irritated that the wiki staff will not agree to this when there is many many other examples of similar references out there on this wiki.
I'm even more irritated that the wiki staff acts with such disregard to the mabinogi community, outright insulting them in their own IRC, and then adopting the "nexon doesn't care" and the "I've dealt with them before, who cares" attitude does not make the wiki's position as a fan site sound very credible.
I get why you'd like the reference to be there, but from one wiki member to another...it just seems a bit redundant. Most people could tell that the Mabi Coin comes from the event, which has it's own page and does leave a link to the official site. I'm guessing the reason why they didn't allow it(if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) is mainly due to the fact that the wiki hasn't had to place a ref on almost every page. Since there hasn't really been any confusion or complaints on where it came from, its likely the fact that people already know where its coming from. Referencing a main page is a must, but a sub-page...not exactly :o.
It's not a lie, it's an opinion.
I hope you realize I never told you to not put references (of course you don't realize this). I told you these things:
- Reverting a moderator edit is against the MWorld rules
- Follow the procedure if you want to deal with this issue
I seriously recommend that if you really want such a special position in the community you learn how to actually follow rules (or even read them, probably) and also how to make a point in a civil and respectful way. Opening with "YOU'RE GOING TO JAIL" frankly makes you look like an idiot, if we're going to be open and honest.
And yes, I am grateful that Sabina personally came to our IRC, apologized for any misgivings due to one GM's rogue behavior wrt data mining, and specifically requested that we submit a request to become a fan site.
PS: Mugenai is IRC staff not wiki staff. He serves an entirely different role and one you are completely unfamiliar with. If you have a specific complaint about staff, you can talk to me. Even if your complaint is against me, talk to me, civily. I think I am being quite respectful and civil, here, and have been even since IRC. I make it a point to be so. You might recall I even told Mugi to stop being mean and he did. Going to Nexon isn't going above me, it's just trying to hold something of ours hostage to manipulate me into agreeing. And yet here I sit, completely willing to discuss this.
Please learn the difference between MW Wiki staff and IRC staff. Also, I'm not sure what kind of response you were expecting when the first three sentences you typed upon entering were:
Mar 23 23:22:44 <tanino> I would like to know what staff member finds it funny to constantly remove my references.
Mar 23 23:22:57 <tanino> Unless someone wants to go to jail, that's totally fine. But leave the god damn refs alone.
I'm not saying I don't agree that it didn't look nice or that maybe it wasn't needed, what I'm saying is that there was no need to remove it to begin with, it wasn't a bad edit or superfluous information, it was an accurate edit, even on a subpage. Some people might not know to look at the main event page for a reference.
Also I'm not familiar with the Wiki staff or IRC staff for that matter, I'm sorry for my very irate intro to the IRC however I was rather mad that someone had the nerve to remove a reference after it was added back by others and not just myself. I think its debatable as to why it should/shouldn't be there, but in the end its still a personal opinion question.
I'd like to apologize for my rude behavior, I realize its a bit late for this and I should have said so beforehand. Personally the way I see it at this point is as, The entire wiki may be based off player info and info provided by nexon sources, however in spite of this references are omitted throughout the entire wiki, whereas they should be there, furthermore you cannot claim common knowledge on something that was not confirmed by at least 5 different sources, this is general ethical knowledge.
While omitting a reference here and there isn't a bad thing, it happens, I think that there should be references when the information has yet to be confirmed true by several official sources. Furthermore, looking at the Mabi Coin page all I see is "We know where the information came from, but we removed the ref either way" <- Not a valid reason to remove an edit, again like I said, if the whole wiki needs an overhaul then so be it. There's plenty of people that work on the wiki to do that.
Thank you for your apology. :D
RE: Not knowing the staff structure, you can see Wiki staff here. It's linked at the top of the Main Page discussion section.
People were only removing the link because they were actually following the rules here. I'm sorry if it upset you but had you been aware of the rules you likely would've understood why it was happening. It is Kiyoura's as well as other moderators' jobs to clean up the wiki and make it look nice, and if you disagree with a change there is a specific procedure to follow as outlined in the policy. I'm glad you are starting an actual discussion of the topic now, and I will be happy to look at that while disregarding any previous behavior.
Hello Tanino. Do you remember me? I remember you from mabimml.co. I'm glad to see you're still a passionate member of the Mabinogi community. However, you're a bit misguided in your passion. Even though I am a wiki staff member here, I hope you will listen to my opinion of the matter:
- Your understanding of the legal issues that you are worried about are not as complete as you may think they are. I assure you that your concerns about copyright infringement or plagiarism are unfounded and the wiki does not have any legal problems.
- When Kadalyn said that Nexon doesn't care, it wasn't an assumption. It was a fact. Kadalyn has personally spoken to Nexon staff members in the past and gotten the OK for various things. Although I don't know the contents of all their discussion, I'm certain that if she says something is OK, then it is OK.
- I see you are trying to use other examples from the wiki to back up your argument. As a counter response, I would also like to point out that the wiki is edited by a lot of different people with a lot of different ideas of how things should be done. Incidentally, the majority also do not read the wiki policy. As a result, inconsistencies will happen and sometimes these inconsistencies aren't caught by the staff. We're only human after all. References are, on this wiki, used to cite word-for-word descriptions taken from official Nexon announcements. Using it in any other way is not the currently intended use and should be removed. Enforcing things like this is a staff member's job. We don't do it because we want to piss people off.
- Threats are not the best way to get people to do what you want, especially when the people you are trying to threaten know you cannot follow through on the threat. When you threaten someone, you are showing that you have no respect for them. In return, the threatened party has no reason to respect you either. If you don't remember, you started the conversation with a threat and so all respect was gone from the very beginning.
- As stated previously, there is a procedure to how major changes are made to the wiki. If you still believe that references are necessary even though there is no legal issue, then please start a civil discussion. If you can show that the majority of the community would like to see references, then we can change how we handle references. My personal opinion of this matter is that requiring references has a chance of decreasing the amount of new editors, which is not desirable.
As a side note, we also use references for content sourced outside of Nexon, like the JP wiki, when the original author is not the contributor (whereas original authors are not allowed to leave ego boosts on pages, including links to their own original postings as citations).
Yea I noticed that after I uploaded again . _ . not sure why it doesn't actually update the file page when you submit a new one without needing to refresh it. Lesson learned.
Please see if this looks ok to you, I figured since it sorta is a mini game it would be nice to see what using it looks like for further reference. Beyond that, sorry for not starting a new talk topic for this.