Talk:Gods

This page is a travesty, please stick to pure fact only. Not derivatives, not conjecture, not theorising, not opinion, just pure fact. If it's questionable then take it out. The Milletians page was bad enough in this regard and it was said outright not to do that crap on the wiki.

What is it you are referring to?

Near the entire damned page.

Please post, in this thread, what you believe to be untrue.

Ignoring that it's not a matter of true vs untrue, I'll humor you for a bit.

The following should be removed outright; Glas, Lugh, Cromm, Elatha, Nuadha, Falias Gatekeeper (unless he actually says outright he's a God), the distinction of tiers of Gods and all the trivia.

• Glas: Classified as a God through various context.
• Lugh: ^
• Cromm: ^
• Elatha: Descendant of a Goddess. Lebbaeus also says he's not of Incubus bloodline.
• Nuadha: King of the GODS.
• Falias Gatekeeper: Same reason as Elatha.
• Distinction: None of them are all alike. If the lower-tiers were considered higher-tiers, they'd be able to blow up Erinn.
• Trivia: All of it is factual.

"Classified as a God through various context. ". This is why I said it's conjecture and opinion, which has no place on the wiki (apart from Nuadha, dunno why I said him, I was meant to say Corple). Find where it says he's actually a God. I'll bet that you can't because it's not actually in the game. Same goes for Lugh and while there's a single reference to Cromm as "god of destruction" it's dubious at best (the shitty trivia even makes note of this). You can argue that Elatha is a descendant of a Goddess but that doesn't matter. He's also the descendant of a human. Otherwise it's not stated what he is in-game other than "incubus" even if he's not of their bloodline. This is a another example of you guys deriving an idea from what you've seen in-game. Nowhere do they call him a god despite referencing his very clear link to one. Same goes with the Falias Gatekeeper, unless it's directly stated he's a God it's just you guys drawing the idea from his father. The distinction between tiers is just a construct made by you guys. It doesn't matter that they're different. It doesn't matter that none of them are alike, separating them into "low-tier/high-tier/lesser gods" is just an act by you guys and has no basis in the game. If you want to argue for it then show me where it's clearly stated and defined in game. "Trivia: All of it is factual. ", yeah no. Being factual doesn't make it fact nor does it make it pertinent. "Although the actual term is Deity, Lower-Tier Gods are promptly referred as Gods or Goddesses in-game. " is outright not a fact nor factual, it's someone failing at English. I see little basis for other statements within the trivia but at this point it no longer matters. Impetus now lies on you guys to show how/when/where all of this crap is said in game and why it matters.

I see where you're going with the descendants. Although, it was never stated whether Elatha's father was a mortal nor god and it shouldn't be assumed either way. (Neither does it say he's an Incubus. He appears to be an Incubus, yet the storyline implies he's not so we can't say he is or isn't.) I don't exactly agree with the rest though. The godly classifications actually are written ingame. And so is the references of everyone on that list being known as gods. Looking back, I'm starting to think Infodude partially based this on an article in Mabidata, but I don't see how its nonfactual excluding the descendants, which I previously thought to be factual.

Article on Mabidata? What article? I didn't base my statements on anything.

This one. It just seemed similar to it to me.

Find it, show it. The only people saying as such are you guys. Otherwise I'm going to go through and edit the page myself.

The only person saying otherwise is you.

You're welcome to come to the IRC to hear the others.

That aside, my statement from before still holds. Impetus now lies with you two to make your case.

I'm kind of with both sides here.

I can't think up more than one example where Glas, Lugh, or Cromm were referred to as gods (Embodiment of Destruction book for Glas and Seumas in G3 for Cromm being the only ones to come to my mind), and in those cases it's likely that the "deitifying" was done out of reverence only. Their standing is pretty shaky.

On the other hand, if multiple real sources do refer to them as "gods", then I think they do deserve a place here. Can I suggest that we remove them for now, but if there's three or more different places call any one of them a god, that one can be placed back?

(I think Corple should still be removed, though. The book his name came from strongly implied he was human, so the best he can hope for on this page is a trivial mention...which I still think is too much for him.)

As for Elatha and the other Eabha, Mystickskye is right in the fact that even if one undeniably has both supernatural powers and a relative who's a god, that doesn't mean that he, himself, is a god. I think a god not only need to be well known, but also worshiped, before he can enjoy godly status. So I don't think this page can label them a god...though, I think we can just as easily make a section here for "descendents of gods".

For the distinction, I have to say that the first time I've even come across the difference in ranks is when I stumbled onto this page. Admittedly, they're a good guide to divide them by, but if it's not referred to in-game, I don't think it has a place there. Can we divide the sections into "Known Gods", "Other Gods Mentioned", and "Descendant of Gods", and then just list their known powers next to each listed god?

And finally, the trivia...with the exception of the last one (the one about Shakespeare), I think they're all either not important or should be moved to the main section if not already mentioned. (I think the last one's significant only because it's an inconsistency in-game.)

If I remember correct, Glas is referred to as a "God" by Kristell, an "Embodiment" by the book, and by "Avatar" by Morrighan. These all refer Glas to its deity-like status.

This is what I mean by personal opinion and conjecture. "Embodiment" and "avatar" doesn't necessarily make it a god, it's just your drawn conclusion. And from checking the G1 transcript it's not actually called a God anywhere. I went and read through all the gens up to around partway through G9 and found nothing to solidly call them Gods.

With no new replies to date and no reasonable reason not to, I'm going to go ahead and edit the page if there are no more developments.

Aww...no taking up my suggestions?

Nothing really going for it.

I'm...not entirely sure if you mean "no reason to do so" (in which case I would ask "Why not?") or "I have no opinion on this, if you want to do it do it yourself".

I mean there's nothing said so far to provide any real reason to do so. On the other hand I started and maintained why it shouldn't be on the page from the beginning.

My proposed division and the "demigods", yeah, I guess haven't given a solid reason. So lemme say that it's for the sake of giving a sense of categorization that had been removed. This way it would clearly mark the more common gods, and shove off the less common gods into a trivia-like position that acknowledge their status here, but reminds that they're minor. The "demigods", I just thought their connection to gods should be acknowledged.

For re-promoting Glas, Lugh, or Cromm, I would think that the criteria outlined is enough of a qualifier to reinstate them, so wouldn't the onus be reversed now to anyone against this explaining why they're not good enough standard to use? (Though you're right that establishing what counts as "God" would be needed before that happens.)

As to listing the Gods' powers - why the heck not? Among the information you removed were real, concrete, and displayed facts that obviously come from each Gods' standing as one. This place is pretty much the only proper place that can actively note differences between the gods, you know, and that definitely gives a better understanding of "Gods" as a whole.

In kind of the same way, the trivia about Shakespeare is an inconsistency from the facts so far given about gods. There's no clear answer to this yet, and that should be acknowledged, and where better to place that tidbit than here?

I completely agree with Akira. Sorry I haven't been replying, I've been looking for the source of the god categorization (Higher-tier, Lower-tier). I remember seeing it somewhere within the game however, it's not in C3, it's probably not in C4 or C2, and I don't have a human to do C1 and all the humans I talked to have nothing of relevance to say.

Infodude, you claim you didn't base your article on Mabidata and you use the same terms as them, so their is a possibility that the terms are official. Where did you get those names from, if you remember?

Mystickskye, I don't see the the backing for removing 90% of what you removed; we're not trying to target you (since I did get that vibe when reading this myself), but I don't see why what was removed was removed.

Edit: What I said only applies to Lower and Higher tiers, Lesser is obviously not a real tier.

The names? They were merely made-up, seeing how Aton Cimeni and the three were omnipotent and the rest just have one or two lower commands.
Lesser was just the result of those with a deity-like status whom had made no appearance and/or no specific role in the mainstream story.

And, I totally agree with Akira on this whole fiasco.

@Akira What criteria? The single fact that they're not really called Gods in game (as I said I can find very, very few references to Cromm being a God and they're dubious at that whilst I can't find any claims that Glas and Lugh are gods at all) means that no one agreeing with this statement has to do anything other than wait for arguments that they are gods. As for "powers".... I'm not sure what you're referring to. The powers of various gods are still in there. I did remove the tiers and the descriptions of those but removing those doesn't actually go against what you said. As for Shakespeare this is a perceived inconsistency, we don't have the full picture. If you think it's really that important then put it on Shakespeare's page. @Pyro I see nothing of the sort in C1. Also, all the information is there. If you don't see the backing then I suggest you look harder.

All I'm doing right now is repeating what I've been saying since the beginning. I again welcome you to the IRC if you want to discuss it in person.

Overview: We proved those who were called gods are gods. Doesn't matter how many times its mentioned as long as its mentioned within the game in the NA version. So far, the only valid changes would be: removing the non-canonical categorization of god types and either removing the Falias Gatekeeper and Elatha or keeping them and adding a section for descendants as Akira suggested.

So... how are we going to classify them now? I mean, the "lower-tier" are obviously not as powerful as Aton Cimeni.

@Mystickskye - The trivia about Shakespeare is useless on his page. It is an inconsistency on the part of the gods, not Shakespeare himself. Therefore it should be placed here.

As for "powers"...I admit, that was kind of a misinterpretation on my part. I thought for some reason that the cataloging you removed had listed the common powers of each "tier". The "powers" I meant to refer to amounts to the fact that some Gods can die and revive, which was in the trivia section (though Infodude placed it back by now), though I'm still all for listing other powers (teleportation, dream visits, some degree of foresight and perhaps some skills) on this page too.

As for the "criteria" - near this whole freaking thread is exactly about whether Glas, Lugh or Cromm are gods or not. We're already arguing about this here. That is sort of why I'm asking you whether my rudimentary "criteria" is good enough to promote a powerful figure into god status or not.

@Pyro & Infodude - Waitwaitwait! I think you guys totally misunderstood what I was saying. I was actually agreeing with Mystickskye on some of his points. Specifically on the points that:

• Parts of the trivia is trivial
• Glas, Lugh, and Cromm are not gods until proven otherwise
• Corple can show himself to the door

Infodude, that list you got for Glas was a good start, but I think first we need to come up with the exact wordings and the exact instances first, to verify them. (It may just be me, but this page is mostly built out of vague remembrances that one can't quite find, after all.)

@Everyone - Considering they used the word considered, I think Corple's standing is debatable. I searched the wiki (still haven't done C1 yet and frankly I don't really want another Human so I'll wait until G16S2 for that) and I found one mention of Lugh being a god. Seal Stone Research Almanac : Ciar Dungeon As for the other mentions, we'd have to search C1 and C2.

@Infodude - You added them to the list, do you remember the sources for Glas and Cromm?

@Everyone - By the way, just a reminder. In G16S2 they're going to make G1 available to Elves and Giants and they are working on G2, possibly G3 too. That being said, the storyline for G2-3 will end up changing for Elves and Giants and maybe for Humans too.

Edit: Do we have a majority vote on reinstating Elatha and the Falias Gatekeeper under a Descendants subheader?

Since all of the gods in the game excluding the Higher Tier Gods are not really gods, should we use the word Deity to refer to the other "Gods"? This will prevent confusion.

“	Although the actual term is Deity, Lower-Tier Gods are promptly referred as Gods or Goddesses in-game.	„
—Trivia

The term was never really used in-game if I remember correctly. We go by what Nexon states, not by the actual term itself.

By the way, what do you mean they "are not really gods"?

Well, they're (most of them) falsely claiming to be gods when they are really mortals.

Like who?

Morrighan and Cichol for one.

G15 never really clarified if they were originally mortal, though. It just portrays them, but never states if they were or not.

Still, they have done feats that make them feared. For example, Cichol killed Mores, the greatest druid in all of Erinn.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about... I mean, the lower-tier gods are mortals. Them originally being Human is irrelevant.

I'm confused... humans are considered mortals, are they not?

Where does it say they were "at first mortal"?

Yes, humans are one of the mortals. And you're misunderstanding. The deities weren't "at first mortal", they are still mortal.

Again, where does it say they were mortal?

Macha's book says the Goddess herself converted to mortal.

I think what Pyrus' referring to is that the gods can die. Either that, or he's referring to the listed "gods" like Lugh or Corple, who are still mortals.

Why are you so addicted to Corple now? o-o

I'm not addicted to him. I was just never sure if he belonged here in the first place, and if he did, where he should belong to. After all, Corple is a human who's called a "God" because of sheer ability, just like Lugh, though unlike Lugh, Corple is much less known.

I'm not sure where I heard that the gods weren't truly gods. I recall something about Falias's destruction and Aton Cimeni. Might've been from G12 or the Falias Gatekeeper.

I don't think just because morighan and cichol were portrayed as young and "appear" fragile prove them mortal

I never said that was why though...

Since Lugh Lavada is listed, can Corple, reference from Musicians of Erinn, be placed here too?

Corple would be categorized as a "Lesser" God. "Lower-Tiers" are the ones who have significant roles while "Lessers" are just Gods/Goddesses who are only mentioned in descriptions.

I was actually more questioning whether he had a right to be here, not where he'd be placed. Unlike Lugh, Corple doesn't exactly have any special powers, though he was supposedly a music genious. And besides, I'm kinda wondering whether in the in-game context, Loeiz just gave out the title as more or less praise, like how he gave the other two musicians the titles of "king" and "wizard".

Manannan is referred to in a few more places than that. I don't remember if he was in G1-3, but in the pre-G4 storyline quest, using the How to Get on a Boat and etc keywords on citizens of Bangor brings up dialogue about him. Also, in G12, Legatus mentions him. When not in G12 and talking to Eabha, he will mention he is one of the many sons of Manannan mac Lir, (should we call him Manannan or Manannan mac Lir? Mac Lir indicates he's the son of somebody named Lir,) and he was seant there two collect the white bones of Falias. That would indicated the Falias Gatekeeper is also a Demigod or Lower-Tier God.

In the Korean Test Server for G16, there are items involving Manannan. Meaning he'll be mentioned again in G16. (The items are quest items, a helmet and a tear [rock].)

First, is it actually stated Lugh Lavada became Morgant only after the humans kidnapped his daughter? 'Cause he did leave his knighthood right after the second war, and besides, what would he be doing loitering in a dungeon?

Second, if Elatha is in here, why not Nao?

And third, where does it say in-game that a god killed as a mortal cannot be revived? (Referring to the trivia section.)

(And fourth, wow, I didn't even know this page was here.)

First, I don't think they ever said that. But it does seem likely he would become Morgant for that reason (ya know, daddys get pissed for their daughters being kidnapped). We might find out in G16.

Secondly, did they even confirm Nao was a Deity?

Third, Macha who transformed herself into a mortal who then died is still dead. She had so many Generations to get a ress, but no. She decided to stay dead. Cichol died once and got a ress one Gen later. Nuadha died and he came back.

They confirmed that Mari became Nao after merging with a Goddess from another world. (So she technically is a demigod.)

Uh, where did they say that about Nao? G3? I guess I can't argue then...

As for the Macha point, just because she didn't choose to revive doesn't mean she can't. It's likely I'm stereotyping, but females are typically the ones to blame and/or lash out at themselves, so it's possible she built herself a little hidey-hole in the afterlife to wallow in despair. And besides which, only one case is certainly not enough to make claims like that.

And as for the Morgant point, if that's the only reason for the statement being put there I'm going to remove it as well. Like I said, he (and his daughter) wouldn't even be in Math dungeon in the first place if he wasn't already a Dark Knight. As well, he turned in his sword immediately after the Second Mag Tuireadh war, and that's as good a chance for him to turn over to The Dark Side as when his daughter was kidnapped. No, we're not sure enough of his life's timeline, and until it maybe gets confirmed in G16, I don't think it should be there.

I don't think Macha blamed herself for what happened. She blamed her boyfriend for what he did and hated humans. But you have a point though, it seems like she did built a hidey-hole to stray herself from humanity.
I think its possible Macha's essence is still alive. The curse was lifted after she was honoured, but there may have been a specific requirement for said curse to be removed.

Morgant was in play before Elatha was born I believe. But it never said if it was before or after the events.

In Generation 3, at the final I believe, or towards it. They were discussing what Cichol plans to do with Triona, merge her with the soul of Macha utilizing the Lia Fail, as Mari merged with the unnamed goddess from another world.

I agree, if it's not in the game, we should remove it. But I do remember something about it, although my memories may be deceiving me. What do you think Infodude?

I think my memories are deceiving me as well. Someone might have assumed that when Generation 2 came out.

I looked at the strategy guide btw, they didn't say Mari blah blah blah at the final.

I no longer have access to any characters whom have completed C1. Can either of you, if you have finished G3 on a char you currently can log onto, check the library for cutscenes?

My only human main is locked out too, but all of the cutscenes are in the strategy guides. And actually, it looks like most of the info we're looking for isn't even in the cutscenes anyways, they're from the dialogues of characters which isn't stored in the library, unfortunately.

For Morgant, in G3 Priest James mentioned that Esras ordered Redire to capture a human child, which made the Dark Lord come after them, and from this he reasons that Triona must be the ressurected form of Macha who just hasn't awakened yet, otherwise why were the Fomors so extreme over just one child? From this I think it's implied that Morgant was a Dark Lord before Triona's kidnapping, and we can kinda say Macha isn't dead. Dunno what ressurected but asleep would be equivalent to here.

For Nao, Duncan explains that Lia Fail's process isn't a Goddess inhabiting someone else's body, but instead the slow merging with a God/Goddess who chooses the body as a median. He then mentions that's also how Nao became what she is today. So it does look like Mari had to "become one" with some different entity to become a deity herself. But Duncan does confirm Mari's a "God-like presence" now.

Slight bit more info about Macha, she could control the psyche of her soldiers to make them fight as one, and I think it was mentioned that she could make her opposing army go crazy as well. Plus, she could read minds, so she knew that she was going to be betrayed one day, even though she chose to believe in love. That was from the information gathered from Emain Macha residents.

I think that's all I found...

The stuff doesn't have to be mentioned by cutscene, Pyro. It can be dialogue from characters like Akira said.

Since any mortal can become a God, that means Partholoanians, Tir Bolg, Milletians, Fomors, and Tuatha de Dananns can all be Gods and what they originally were. Should we categorize them under the same thing as the other people groups?

But... aren't Gods technically "Groups of People", too?

By the way... Would it be possible for the Lower-Tier Gods to be previously mortal before their ascension? I recall Morrighan calling Cichol a "Human" in Generation 3's Finale.

They were Human in G3? Don't remember that. But yes. Since any mortal can become a god, there is a possibility that current ingame gods were originally mortal. In one G15's scenes, it shows a picture of teenage Morrighan and Cichol without wings.

http://mabidata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=829

Edit: If you are referring to

“	In Generation 3, Morrighan refers Cichol as a 'cold and heartless Human being.'	„

Then that is irrelevant. Groups of People is what I called them rather than race because they aren't races. One can be a Milletian and not human. One can be a Fomor and not Gremlin. Etc. If God is really the same type of thing, then their species is irrelevant. The word Mortal ingame refers to someone who can die, not someone who is Human.

Morrighan: ...I cannot forgive you, Cichol. How can a human being be so cold and heartless...?
http://mabinogi.nexon.net/Guide/StrategyGuide.aspx?boardNo=707&contentNo=004H6&pageIndex=2

Read my edit.

In any case, that is what Morrighan says. I'm assuming she's referring to Cichol and not Ruairi. (how would he be acting 'cold and heartless' in that scene?)

Regardless, what do you suggest we categorize them under then?

Perhaps other? Because, this is possible: Someone is an Giant, a Milletian, and a Goddess. Lets just make them go directly into General Information?

mainstream refer Glas as god of destruction, and fallen god.

mainsteam refer Cromm as god of unending darkness (but claimh solas absorbed the darkness, causing cromm to lose power)

do you think this is the exaggeration by people, or really gods? (or formerly gods)

Sounds more like an exaggeration.
They also refer Lugh as a God but more commonly a Knight.

They constantly refer to Glas as a god from outside of Erinn.

My memory may have some fragments, but didn't Cichol try using Triona to bring back Macha so she can bring forth Cromm Cruiach?

No. Cichol used Triona to try and bring back Macha. Cromm Cruiach is unrelated, but is involved.

One of his several attempts to destroy Erinn so he may rebuild from scratch.

Wouldn't that mean Macha would be ressurected despite being a 'mortal'?

... Cichol could have used Another World, Erinn's parallel plane, to 'rebuild'... But no, he wants to do things his own way...

No, because the resurrection of Macha failed. Remember, Triona had to fuse with Macha, like how Mari became Nao with some other foreign unnamed goddess.

So basically, Triona would have Macha's body?

More like they're bodies fuse into a form that isn't god or mortal. Kind of like Elatha.