Talk:Dual Wielding

Machetes

Is it possible to dual wield Machetes?--Trickybomb 20:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No... you also cant dualwield gathering knives. i added that btw ~ Fruitrecruit

Damage Formula

WHOA ~ are you sure about that damage formula for 1 hit skills (Smash/WM)? because it appears to me that you would be doing over 250% of your regular damage or something. If that formula is correct, I don't know why Nexon releases Dual Wield on the account that all other melee weapons will become completely pointless. No one will be using any other melee weapons other than Dual Wield. Therefore there will be no need for other weapons~ verification please? Fruitrecruit

Basically, it got to the point where almost everyone playing a human was primarily an archer and dual wielded 222 broadswords as a secondary. So devCAT nerfed Arrow Revolver, then later on seriously buffed shields (+15 defense all the time, not just while defending) and two handed swords (20% stronger) to try and entice players into using them again. --Naiya 19:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

2handers always stronger, or only for smash? I thought it only applied to smashes. --Babohtea 20:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

At this point I should note that the damage isn't really the same: all swords generally have a low damage range [meaning a high min and low max], whereas blunts have low min high max, and with high balance they'll end up dealing great damage, so in the end higher levels might want to go for blunts. Novaix 08:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

economic disaster -_-. two handed swords need to become +100% stronger to match. lol ~Fruitrecruit

like, say, an ego weapon? =D -- Ladywinter 07:44, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Humans don't have any business wielding a two handed sword ever again. Even with some of the nice enchants coming out. Giants on the other hand who can wield a two handed sword with a shield...--Mystickskye 02:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for starting a new subject but I'm pretty much a wiki newbie so I'm not entirely sure how to branch off an already existing subject.

Anyway, there have been many many many topics on dual wielding over the last few months and more and more I'm seeing very conflicting reports on it. http://mabinogiworld.com/forums/index.php?topic=3429.0 This topic from the mabinogiworld forum of all places says that dual wielding gets a 20% bonus on top of skill based smash damage (200%->240%, 500%->600%) and says that Windmill damage is doubled. Though there's a link to the wiki, I don't understand Japanese so I can't verify the claim. I tried an automatic translator though from memory the result was convincing enough for me to say either way. -Mystickskye

Info

i don't completely believe the content on this page, that's all. we wouldn't see a shield in sight if it was true. Also, isn't Dual Wield released in G4S3? not S1? --Fruitrecruit 08:20, 1 February 2009 (EST)

I didn't see anything saying it was for S1, but that might just be because I wasn't looking for a release time. And on the subject of the release, will there be a prerequisite when it comes out? I've heard everything from Nothing, to Money(gp), to an insanely hard quest, to Combat mastery (I've heard both that you need rank 9 and that you need rank 5). Is there anything conclusive on this, or is that ALL just speculation. I suppose l should have asked this a few months ago when I wanted to know instead of So soon before the release.

There's little doubt that you need to do anything. I'm sure that you can just Dual Wield when the time comes. In other servers it was released in G4S3, I believe. Fruitrecruit 18:04, 2 February 2009 (EST)

Hits and attacks

Can someone clarify this? It's a tad confusing to me. Does the standard number of hits per combo of a sword not factor into this at all? It might explain however that someone told me that n+1 with a pair of three hit swords actually only gets seven hits total though.

This is true 3 hit weapons generally get 7 hits with N+1 due to the amount delay time normally generated with fast or average speed weapons. However for slow weapons (Gladius Broadsword Etc) N+1 will generate 6 hits *2 Pause 2 2 hits*. It is possible to N+1 8 hits but it requires the monster not to retaliate right off the bat which is very unlikely. --Suupii

Proficiency with Dual Wielding

When Dual Wielding, the prof only goes to weapons that hit. On this note your left hand weapon always hits first. Normally both weapons will get 2 hits in so the prof would be even. However in circumstances like hitting someone in defense or a 3 hit 2 hit weapon combo Prof goes astray and you will realize that after a long period of prof farming one weapon will have a significantly larger prof than the other *IE 50 prof right hand 62 prof left hand weapon* To off set this alternate your main hand and off hand weapons around, it doesn't hurt the damage as far as i know since damage is calculated as the medium of the 2s damage. --Suupii

Hint- Ego in right hand slot *left side of frame* will lose less durability as it hits less often compared to the left hand *right side of the frame* --Suupii

Obtaining the skill

Do I have to go to the new continent to get it or is it automatically added like actions were? Feli 08:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Automatically but its not an action. =P ~ Shadowboy132

dual wielding and skills

the wiki says damage from skills while dual wielding is [(Bare hand damage) + (first weapon damage) + (second weapon damage)] * (% damage of skill) but is is slightly wrong, bare hand damage should be replaced with base damage, bare handed damage is different from base damage, to see your base damage equip something with 0~0attack, such as a magic powder

i have observed that with dual daggers equipped, the maximum damage i can inflict against grey wolves is 509

testing was done as 10 minutes of smashing grey wolves outside of tir, a value of 509 and no higher was repeatedly observed

grey wolves have 1 def and 0 prot, resulting is a 510 damage gross value

this is inconsistent with rank1 smash and and the character sheet reported max damage of 93 but also with the previous function using bare handed damage and speculation of a 20% bonus to skill based damage

gross damage for rank1 smash while dual wielding daggers:

character sheet reports max damage as 93 normal function:

                93 * 5 = 465

bonus +20%:

                93 * 5 * 1.2 = 558 

max bare handed damage is observed to be 92 dagger base max damage is 9 as per the old function:

                (92 + 9 + 9) * 5 = 550

40 points overshot

when comparing base damage: magic powder equipped max damage is observed to be 84 magic powder base max damage is 0 base damage is inferred to be 84

                (84 + 9 + 9) * 5 = 510

i will revise the article to match this Jun 20:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

this is further observed to be consistent with windmill Jun 20:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

dual wielding per hit damage

the article states:

"Dual Wielding averages the stats (Min Attack~Max Attack, Critical, Injury Rate, and Balance) of both weapons into the "Attack" stats and then adds damage and other stats according to the stats, skills, and enchants that you have."

this is somewhat misleading though, or more like, the averaged attack stats displayed in the character sheet are misleading

from jun's observations while fighting black tailed-mongooses it would appear that weapon damage for normal hits is calculated independently per weapon per hit

while fighting with a dual-wielded modified gladius in the right hand and a dagger in the left, after a period of time, it was observed that when striking a mongoose the most damage the mongoose would take during the animation of being struck by the dagger was 86 and when struck by the gladius, 105 damage

the black-tailed mongoose is well known to have 1 point of defense and 16% protection

from this, we can calculate their gross damages

dagger net max = 86

(86 / .84) + 1 = 103.38

dagger gross max ≈ 103

gladius net max = 105

(105 / .84) + 1 = 126

gladius gross max = 126

while dual wielding these weapons, the averaged stats in the character sheet report a max damage of 114 which is inconsistent with observed gladius hits

however, when hovering over the stats with one's mouse, the damage ranges for the left and right-handed weapons are individually shown

here it is stated that the max damage for the left hand is 103 and that the max damage for the right hand is 126, the dagger and the gladius respectively

from this i conclude that damage per hit is not averaged and is instead calculated according to the damage of the weapon used for that hit

another note: i can't conclusively state this, but it seems also that damage balance is calculated independently for each weapon as well

the dagger with its 80% balance would reach its max damage somewhat more often than the gladius with a lower 69% balance

--Jun 10:22, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

now that i think of it when viewing the attack stats of each weapon while hovering over the averaged stats box, injury, critical hit, and balance are shown for each weapon too. perhaps it's safe to say that none of these stats are averaged in practice but are instead factored in when the specific weapon they're attributed to is used to make a hit

--Jun 10:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

agreed, based on my own observations, but with a glad and a long sword -- Ladywinter 00:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Stat bonuses for Dual wielding during skills

[(Bare hand damage) + (first weapon damage) + (second weapon damage)] * (% damage of skill) is the equation given by the wiki. I'm curious as to how enchants and STR bonuses fit into this? Does the STR Bonus go directly into the barehand damage or is it reapplied to the weapons? Same for enchants: Does the +4 go only towards base damage (applied once), to both weapons (applied twice), or to base as well as weapons (applied 3 times)? --Babohtea 20:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

N+1?

(moved down from above) Also i how would you do the N + 1 ? Can i see a delay chart like hit (delay) hit final--Trickybomb 20:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know any delay charts and I can't explain how to N+1. You just can. It's easy. Really easy. ---Angevon

I guess this is on of those wait and learns things lol xD I wish g4 was already here >.>--Trickybomb 01:30, 28

October 2008 (UTC)

Is it my imagination, or is N+1'ing dual wields require very short delay?

(/move)

I'm currently experimenting with N+ Dual Wielding with a Long Sword (3 hit norm) and a Gladius (2 hit slow), and haven't quite got the trick of it yet. Anyone with tips/observations? -- Ladywinter 00:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Isn't Long sword 3 hit slow? Or did devcat change it and i haven't looked at the description recently? Because in G3 it was definitely 3 hit slow. You should get 6 hits (5 hits changes to 6 i believe). --Fruitrecruit

oh, it might be, I didn't actually look at my longswords to confirm XD. What you do mean by 5 hits changes to 6? -- Ladywinter 08:59, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I use Dual Wield Gladius' and i find the perfect timing is when you hit and pause, wait for the animation of twirling both blades and hit again. It should generate a 6 hit combo, however if u do it to fast a 5 hit N+1 might ensue. --Suupii

I do it visually; wait until the blades 'cross' then hit. -- Ladywinter 01:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

However i never use 3 hits weapon just because I tend to lag a lot and timing for N+1 is slightly faster. It can be done by simply hitting waiting half a second hit again wait a little less and hit again. Should produce a 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 hit combo for most 3 hit weapons. --Suupii

Also to clear the confusion of Dual Wielding different weapon (IE flute short sword Bastard sword *3 hit + 2 hit*) U will get a 2 + 2 + 1 strike without N+1; where the last 1 hit is of the fluted short sword. However with N+1 i presume it would allow the Bastard Sword to get a hit in too. However i never use these combos so its up to someone else to contribute more information. --Suupii

I use longsword and gladius for dual wield and i know how regular attacks work. It appears that you do 5 hits but the last hit is a double hit. It does damage for both weapons and i think you can see the damage done by both weapons seperatly at the same time, next to each other.(and btw i think longsword is the only 3 hit weapon that can get to 62 max damage with Gem upgrade) --Link 16

Tips section?

im not sure there should be a tips section on this page. and i dont think the author should be talking about himself on an information page. well, hes not talking about himself, but he used personal pronouns(I Me) allot. Sozen Cratos Focker 02:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

agreed, in the process of rewording -- Ladywinter 06:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletions

I deleted this line:

• • When Dual Wielding with a 5 hit weapon, it will result as hitting 6 times, rather than 5.

because it seems incredibly confusing. 5 hit weapon, what?

Also, this:

• For 4 hits and 6 hits, each attack is 2 hits. 6 hits means 3 attacks. 4 hits means 2 attacks. 5 hits is the same as 6 hits.

While I get a sense of what they're trying to say, it really needs to be reworded. Also I think it's unnecessary.

False:

• If only one hit is required to knock an enemy down or kill an enemy, only one hit will be used.

Often I've seen my character complete the second hit, even when it dies during the first.

-- Ladywinter 07:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Unless I'm very mistaken, the only way for the second hit to occur in this case is if there is another monster within the splash range of the weapon. If there's only the 1 monster, I've never observed the second hit to happen when the enemy is down. --Doomsday 13:32, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

False:

• As the enchants are tied intrinsically to the weapon, benefits such as max damage +4 apply solely to the enchanted weapon.

Or at least the wording of it is false. Enchants aren't tied to the weapon, if so, wearing a stiff tail wouldn't affect your weapon's crit any.

-- Ladywinter 07:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually the enchants are tied to the weapon. In the situation of the Stiff Tail Cap, it's a "Weapon" based enchant and so the effects of the enchant are applied to the weapon. What's important to understand here is that technically, it's not your critical rate going up, it's the critical rate of your weapon(s) whether your weapon of choice are your bare hands, a sword/blunt or a pair of swords/blunts. So again, in the case of a Stiff Tail Cap, the game looks at the Stiff enchant and applies the +10 critical rate to your "Weapon system" so to speak. In the case of dual wielding this means both your weapons get the +10 rise. If you however equip a stock Stiff Fierce mace and a plain mace, the Stiff enchanted mace gets +10 whilst the plain mace doesn't and this is due to the enchant being tied solely to that weapon. Checking the independent weapon stats in the char screen proves this and I've tested it extensively with both crit/dmg modifiers and on both my human and my giant. --Mystickskye 11:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

ok, THAT makes much more sense! ...hmm, is there any way to pare that explanation down for the page? Also: what happens then to the stiff enchant on BOTH your weapons? Is it true then that you can't use two stiff enchanted weapons or only one would apply? (learned from an in-game convo) -- Ladywinter 22:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The Stiff enchant on both weapons simply applies to the individual weapon. As I said, if weapon 1 is stiff and weapon 2 isn't, weapon 1 gets +10 crit whilst weapont 2 doesn't. If weapon 1 is plain and weapon 2 is stiff, weapon 1 stays the same and weapon 2 gets +10 crit. Thusly, if both weapons are stiff enchanted, both get +10 crit. So don't believe anyone who tells you that dual wielding stiff enchants and the like are a waste, the non-stiff weapon loses out. I think I'll have to make a diagram (Or maybe even write a guide) of sorts for this. It is admittedly very confusing till you see in-depth for yourself.--Mystickskye 22:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I think a guide/diagram would be very helpful, as there's alot of rumors and miscommunication about dual wield right now...that's not helped by the Character Window averaging stats and being generally confounding. -- Ladywinter 00:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

i love what youve done with the page! it looks so much beter now. Sozen Cratos Focker 08:38, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

=) ty -- Lad=ywinter 08:59, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Question

• When u have fox enchants on both weapons giving +4 max +2 min damage, does that mean each weapon gets +8 damage max +4 damage min when in action or do they bind to the specific weapon *since fox can also go on equipment this would also lead to saying that 5 pieces of fox all giving max +4 max +2 min gives +20 max and +10 min to each weapon, or would it only give +16 max +8 min to each weapon as fox wont help the other weapon with damage + enchants? --Suupii

read the thread above. Basically fox, on a weapon, applies only to the weapon, to each hit. Fox, on a equip, applies to each hit. -- Ladywinter 01:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

If you have a 4/2 Fox on both weapons, each weapon only gets +4/+2. If however you have Fox on other equipment, it applies to both weapons. So if you have dual wield two 4/2 Fox weapons, each gets +4/+2. If you dual wield two 4/2 Fox weapons and wear a 4/2 Fox hat, each weapon gets +8/+4. If you wield a 4/2 Fox weapon and a plain weapon whilst wearing a 4/2 Fox hat, the Fox enchanted weapon would get +8/+4 whilst the plain weap gets +4/+2. It's a bit confusing, I really will have to make a guide.--Mystickskye 02:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Most Effective Combo?

The more I look at this section, the more pointless I find it to be. If you ask an overseas vet you have two real answers as to what you should be dual wielding. A pair of 222 broads or a pair of crit-build daggers. If your dex is insufficient for 222 broads then go for a mid-level gladius build. The remark about 222 broads giving low damage at a critical moment is moot for a whole variety of reasons. If you REALLY care about consistent damage then there are also Bastard Sword builds with very high minimum damages and almost no damage range.

Most of the advice given is fairly worthless, no one who really cares about their damage output should be wielding anything other than certain weapons, the long/short/fluted short swords are all incredibly pointless. With the amount of "exceptions" that could apply (eg, high dura weapons as field boss drops, ego weapons) it's not entirely accurate either.--Mystickskye 22:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

lol, I'll pare down the section then. I find the long sword handy as a higher max version of daggers, with the low crit supplemented by enchants, useful for Final Hit. -- Ladywinter 23:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The only reason why people use daggers at all is because they have high crit AND speed. For FH, the increased speed and crit is the important bit which is why max damage takes a back seat. I freely admit that it's all up to personal preference but there's a reason why the aforementioned combos are tried and true in the overseas servers.--Mystickskye 23:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"The weapon wielded on the right hand slot will get first strike, and receive the most proficiency "

That can't be right.

I dual wield all the time; and the weapon in my left hand grows notably faster. Edit: Unless of course the person who typed that meant the hand slot on the right. :/ ~Rusty~

no duh--Hengsheng120 10:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I notice that the weapon in the char's left hand, right hand slot, gets more prof faster too, as well as lose dura faster, but for some reason when I see the animation on those one hit crits, it looks like the char's right hand, left hand slot, is the one that strikes once. --Vinfang 16:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

N+1 is fake...

1 weapon= N+1. Dual weild= N+2.

N+1 with Dual Wield, Hit 2> Wait > Hit 2> Hit 1; N+2 with Wield, Hit 2> Wait > Hit 2> Wait > Hit 2. Tada! N+1/2 for a dual wielder with two 2 hit weapons.--Trickybomb 02:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know if the knock-back hit is with the Left-hand or Right hand?

Sometimes, when I'm doing N+1, the fomor's already low-hp and I finish, and it looks like I finish with my right.

Should we add..

Should we add the fact that [stupid people like me can't figure out that] you can't wield a weapon only in your right hand? (the hand-slot on the right side)--♫ѕτя♪ 01:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

That's your left hand... Try looking at the actual character.--Junjun 03:55, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Dual Weilding and Enchants

An important point has not been made clear with this. Say we have the following examples:

Case 1:
Imp Armor (+10 STR)
Broad Sword
Broad Sword

Case 2:
Fox Armor (+2/+4 damage)
Broad Sword
Broad Sword

Case 3:
Fox Broad Sword (+2/+4 damage)
Broad Sword

Case 4:
Giant Broad Sword (+5 STR)
Broad Sword

In case 1, 2, and 4, the extra damage for each hit is applied to both weapons, while in case 3 the extra damage is only applied to the enchanted weapon. However, is the damage applied to both weapons, or is it applied to the base damage?

When taking a skill, the formula is (base damage + weapon 1 + weapon 2) * skill modifier = total damage. It makes a big difference whether or not fox armor applies to both weapons, or just to the base damage. I am under the impression that it's applied to the base damage, although I want some confirmation on this.

--Doomsday 04:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems to be base damage. "Weapon-specfic" enchants on things not weapons seem to apply to your base damage whereas weapon specific enchants on weapons will apply solely to the weapon in question.

Dual Wield Single Hit Crit/Balance

If you use a single hit skill (i.e. counter/smash) what's the ratio for critical and balance? Such as (as I guess, probably wrong) balance is both weapons added together divided by 2, and critical would be the same. What's the real ratios?Novaix 07:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

huh, it was discussed on this talk page a few months ago, but i guess we forgot to add it to the main page. For normal attacks, everything is calculated separately for each weapon, and you can see the individual stats for each hand if you hover over the attack section of the character window. I'll add this to the page later.

Read more, it says SINGLE HIT. I.e. counter/smash/windmill. Pretty much every skill that isn't normal attack. What is the CRITICAL AND BALANCE for those attacks. I know the damage.Novaix 02:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

oh, sorry. misread that. For skills i always thought it just used what it shows in the attack part of the character when you don't hover over it. I don't see why they would put those numbers there if they didn't mean anything. --Sozen Cratos Focker 13:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

To my knowledge (might have been changed) the attack listed there is NOT the sum of both weapons, and thus can't be for single hit skills. It's just to determine your average damage while dual wielding.Novaix 23:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

oh, you're right. i guess someone will just have to test it... balance is probably the hardest thing to test for... Any1 have a weapon downgraded to 0% balance?--Sozen Cratos Focker 00:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Critical Hit using Skills

This has been bugging me about missing information about the page, but I was wondering, if you use a skill like smash, what would your critical chance be? Let's say weapon one has 20% critical chance and weapon two has critical chance of 30%. Does this mean that when you use smash:

• Critical chance is the average of both of them, making critical chance 25%
• Critical chance stacks up, meaning when using smash, your critical chance is 50%
• Critical chance is determined by the highest critical % of the weapons or 30%
• Critical chance is determined by the lowest weapon chance or 20%
• Critical chance is determined by the weapon on the 1st slot (left hand)
• Critical chance is determined by the weapon on the 2nd slot (right hand)

I did some test to see which it would be. I got a weapon with 20% critical rate and 40%. I beat around some foxes and suspect that the critical chance for smash might be the average of the critical rate. I'm not sure... Can anyone else do a test other than me? --Miyuna 08:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Mystickskye has some info on his userpage about dual wielding. I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for as I haven't the time to read it atm, but it looks helpful lol. --- Angevon (Talk) 14:40, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

This might be me but I think this page is in dire need of a clean-up, but I'm not sure how to do it. Those content headers could be renamed and shorter, and the enchant section... well.

“	This is where most people think the game is "glitched" or deliberately "broken." Also why most people think dual wielding Stiff-enchanted weapons is a waste of money.	„

That sounds awfully opinionated. Do we really need complex examples and statistics and all that gibberish?

Nope. This all looks more like a guide rather than an page with information on the subject.

Edit: Unless that was the goal, which I highly doubt.

In this formula

 [(Base damage) + (first weapon damage) + (second weapon damage)] * (% damage multiplier of skill)

If I'm understanding right:

• Base damage = STR*0.4+Combat Mastery damage
• Weapon damage = [weapon's attack rate] + sum[all +min/max enchants] + Weapon Mastery attack bonus?
• STR bonuses from enchants apply to base damage
• Min/Max damage bonuses from enchants apply to weapon damage (once for each weapon)

Is this right? Trying to do calculations for some equipment/enchant combos.