Removing Stat Improvement from Training Method section in Skill pages.

I just find it useless to have those two information in the Training Method section when there's a table that's much more navigable. That and the fact that we don't really need it for Training Methods. I think the only places that should keep Effects is Life Skills, mainly due to different ranks giving access to certain things, unless there are some other skills like that.

Second issue I have is that, people don't update the Training Method section along with the table. It's easier to edit the Skill Table itself, so I see why any newer editor may ignore it. + Easier to avoid confusion when there's only one place to add information.

Sounds good to me.

I agree. Some skills likes Magic Craft, it would be notable to includes that "you can star crafting weapons at x rank", not necessarily in the individual rank sections, but somewhere relevant. But I don't think +x stats should be mentioned multiple times in multiple locations on a single page.

Have we not decided a final decision? Anyway I'm completely neutral about this, but it does seem to stretch the pages sometimes.

I agree with removing any information which is already presented in the table. However, like you mentioned, for life skills like Blacksmithing we should definitely keep information like "finishing cursor becomes smaller" and the guaranteed production quality bonuses.

On a similar note with Magic Craft (and similar skills) I find it excessively redundant to state that you can craft mana bullets on every single rank. It generally goes without saying that if I can make something at rank F, I should also be able to make it after rank F. We should probably cut those down to just label the first rank a type of production is possible is possible.

I think we should just put that in the skill details section.

or perhaps a bulleted list after the table

That works for me. Since it's a summary and all.

My opinion on this is that, the Summary is a "tl;dr" chart for players who don't want to read everything, while the Training Method is more of the "details," where you look more in depth of each rank. Having the AP Requirement, and Stats Improvement beside one another helps with comparing each Rank, while reducing the amount of times you need to go up and down the page to look at the Summary, and back at the Training Rank. I do agree with removing the Effects list, as a lot of skills' effects are very redundant (like what Shroom said about Magic Craft).

Another note to take into consideration is of the new players/visitors that use the wiki. The Summary chart may be very confusing while starting out. Having a "backup" for players would help them get around the wiki and get used to how the formatting is.

But the chart also has side by side improvements next to ap requirement, and it is a far more efficient comparison of ap and stats (at least when we put it there instead of just totals). I'm not really seeing the confusing part of summary chart. Everything is clearly labeled what it is. I'd like to hope people can read a chart, or that they at least played the game somewhat. A lot of beginners don't even know about the wiki. While I agree that things should try to not be confusing, I'm a little against over doing it. Has anyone made new accounts for characters for how they handle these things in game now? Not that I'd expect people to even read things in game anymore (it seems like the case a lot). Personally, it's a hassle to have to scroll all the way down to find out when I can make something. I'd much largely prefer it under the summary box. The section for training and stats and ap is currently called just "training method". If we were to keep it the way it is now, I'd like to suggest renaming it to "Skill Training and Info" to better describe the section.

"A lot of beginners don't even know about the wiki."

The number of veterans or just average players asking newbies the check out the wiki is high, however. Many players will tell newbies to check the wiki, whether in-game or in the forums.

Though as Meru said, I don't really see how the chart is complicating. It's pretty darn simple and a chart like that shows up everywhere.

Though my problem remains the same, it's the updating of both Training Methods and Summary. Some skills have two completely different information, mainly because people chose to update one and not the other.

Can you give an example of that two completely different information thing and explain a little better?

http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Defense

Go compare the Summary and Training Methods.

Oh, that's what you meant. I guess I read that wrong. It seems the summary chart is the more updated while rank 1 is updated for humans, and the rest not updated at all.

And that's my general problem with having one information on two different section of a page. Inconsistency and lack of updates on one section.

Okay then we are all good to go with the plan then? Any more thoughts kiyoura?

I had a thought while perusing Act 6: Crisis which I have recently shaved. While looking at the training methods I had in store, I also wanted to know how much AP I would need if I trained it right now, but I had to scroll back to the top of the page to see (I need about 200 to finish), which is probably why the extra information started appearing there in the first place.

What I think is most beneficial for both sides of the fence, is any question that starts with "What rank do I need to do/have/make [x]?" should be answered in the table or in a production list. On the other hand, any question that starts with "What do I need to get to the next rank of [y]?" should be answered in the training method list below. In this case, we could theoretically make it part of the table (probably not the most appealing), or just type them in without a template (crazy, I know). This both lessens the burden of tedious updates for skill changes while having the most useful information present when needed.

So, you think we should at least have the ap needed in the training method section? I believe we were just copying the Japanese wiki format for the skill training section. I know that when I was looking at the tailoring skill a lot, I always had to scroll down to the very bottom to see the tailoring rank bonuses (we have since moved a section from the tailored items list to the main tailoring page). We could change the "AP:" part to "AP needed:" instead. I'm not really feeling the formatting of the tailoring page, but I can't really think of anything better right now. Wish it looked a little cleaner, I suppose.

I don't mind keeping AP. It can also be useful to training it, I guess.

So, is there a definite consensus to the original question at hand here? I'm new around here, but I wouldn't mind going through the skill pages to clean them like what was suggested, and like what some people are already doing from what I've noticed. So far from what I can understand is probably to remove the stat improvements and possibly keep the AP required for each rank. Anything else in mind though?

Edit: Posted here since I kinda changed then reverted what I did on the Assault Slash page after I noticed this discussion, which kinda spammed the edit history, sorry about that.

For the longest time the Wiki has had those listed under each rank. It would seem pretty bizarre that you would want to remove all that from the statistics.

If your going to want to make a move on this leave it on the suggestions/discussion page for proper means of going about this, otherwise leave things as they are or you will have the whole wiki community on the alert.

We might as well start up this discussion again. I'm in favor of removing the effects, but keeping the AP cost. However, we need to keep in mind that some skills have different AP costs depending on race. There's also the concern that AP costs displayed in the training methods section is not the same as what's displayed in the summary table.

Alright, thanks for the reply. I'll leave things as they are right now until we get a definite agreement on this. I was confused whether this was settled or not since there are some skill pages where the AP, Effects, and Stat Improvements are already removed, not including the one I initially was looking at. Unless it was asked to be done to see how it looks like.

Edit: I also am in favor of just at least having the AP needed there, as well as renaming the "AP" part as "AP Needed".

Woah forgot about this. I'm with Blargel on the keep the AP but remove the effects.