Talk:Counterattack

elves have diffent counter

Yes, the page needs to be updated for the strengths and AP costs of Giant and Elf counterattacks.

ok, I love how it looks for rank F and E, but D kills my eyes...I'm assuming people are formatting as they go and this will be fixed? o.o -- Ladywinter 02:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the list of skills that can be loaded during the counter's execution seems a little wasteful, why not change it with the words "Practically every skill can be loaded during the counterattack". The fact that it's been there for so long makes me suspicious so i'm being cautious about this.

counter then stomp? :o

i found it possible to use counter and then stomp instead of ice counter and its working like a charm! :D going to test out more enemies and ill add on to this later

Load time of counterattack

Could someone time the counterattack speed of r1 for a human? I've seen it load in one second. Please confirm someone.--Bloopergman 20:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It says 1.5 seconds. It is exactly 1.5 seconds. Your may take a longer time to load (ie 2 seconds) due to lag.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 20:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

From time to time, my fully loaded Counter DOES NOT work on counterable moves. I've also heard of other witnesses, too.

Anyone here wanna backup my claim?

it seems to either be a glitch, ive be hit while having my counter loaded before the I get hit by enemies,monsters

It's probably distance lag if anything. Your client says you loaded Counter yet the server says "Nope".

sometimes it happens with 5 full seconds between it being loaded and me getting hit XD and no lag on my side.

So, my damage with 324 max with counter on mutant rabbit is ~500 and my damage with my guns is 355 and its counter damage with bullets does ~1000 damage. Is it double or is it something else? No enchants or upgrades of any kind.

Also noticed this, did some testing but we need wider samples. My counters with guns without bullets averaged around 540 damage, my counters with bullets hit in the 1100's-1200's.

My testing was also super on mongeese that hit 1's. Sooooooo. And r3 counter. And my damage with bullets was only ever 5 points higher than without, my bare hand damage is 384 and guns with 429.

What rank is your counter? How much damage do the rabbits do to you?

Counter rank 1 and rabbits do 1 damage or so.

Take into consideration that your defense lowers the Rabbit's displayed damage so their damage range isn't 1 when counting in Enemy's Damage for Counter. But I guess I wasn't the only one that thought my counter was unusually high.

That would mean it uses the rabbit's base damage, rather than damage done to you o-o...at least I would think so.

Also are you guys giants? If you are and its Rank 1, then that explains the high damage of your counter.

http://puu.sh/4lQgK.png

I know it's just 1 experiment but notice how the Iron Mace counter was a Critical hit and the Guns were not yet the Guns did essentially more than the Crit Counter from Iron Mace.

...that is seriously strange.

Are you sure its not because of the mace's low min attack?

266(being the minimum damage with Iron Maces) x 2(being 200% from Rank 1 Giant Counter, not including the 200% from the Rabbit because I don't know its damage range and besides it's probably too low to be significant)=532 Damage no Crit.

With Critical Hit it's 532 x 1.5 (am I doing it right?) = 798 Crit

Now with the Guns I have 306 Min Damage so 306 x 2 (under normal circumstances) should be 612 Counter damage. With the Max damage it's 446 x 2 and that's 892 Damage which is clearly not the maximum damage I did with Counter as I did 1091 without Critical with my guns.

Critical damage from countering is based off the enemy's crit rate on you, also their skill rank of critical hit is what goes into the formula, not yours iirc. By looking at counter's discussion page, it seems i am confused again, screw you counter for confusing me.

Totally a human by the way! My theory is it just adds the int to the str to damage formula without any adjustment :| But only with bullets.

I thought Counterattack is based on your damage, not the stats themselves?

So did I, but with this, I don't know what to think anymore. Meru was saying that she thinks maybe it deals double damage because it uses 2 bullets. But that sounds like a stretch.

It's because of 2 bullets.

Try countering with an empty chamber. Does it still double damage?

Seems like bare handed damage to me, but I keep critting.

with guns (empty chamber)

• 303
• 298
• 275
• 300
• 287

without

• 278
• 280
• 270
• 297
• 280

These were done off bears btw...

What's your dmg range w/ and w/o guns equipped?

Testing parameters (I guess...):

• Rank 5 Counter
• Taunes MK3 Equipped: 96~207
• Bare Hands: 146~190

Looks like "with gun" damage is only taking into account the damage range of guns, though there really isnt enough data to be sure.

i looked at my gun and it loses dura. I can't tell if it gains prof since I special upgraded. 300K, 10 blue ups, all down the drain. Never left S1 D:

What about your balance with both weapons?

80%

But the animation shows you only firing one bullet.

What does JP wiki say about this?

I wish there was a relaible kr wiki...

uhh...

デュアルガンで使用する場合、チャージ済み魔力弾が残っていれば２発消費して特有のモーションでカウンターアタックを発動する。残っていなければ近接武器のモーションでカウンターアタックを発動する。チャージ済み魔力弾の有無で威力が異なる。

basically it says counter workse differently depending on bullets in chamber or not. 2x damage or base bare handed. Doesn't say how much.

I've been wondering about this lately, how is the damage factored with a Ranged Weapon? From Bare Hands, like with Windmill?

Reword it better, because as it stands. it makes it sounds like it bypasses protection when it doesn't for critical hit chance.

Critical Hit Chance has nothing to do with protection.

The chance of landing a critical hit, however, does.

Yes but the chance of getting a critical hit with counter does factor with protection. Like i said in the underlying edit.

Used CP gear. Zombies got no crits on me.

Used Crit gear which shot me past 30% chance of landing a critical hit factoring protection. Viola they crit me.

I don't see how your crit % has anything to do with their crit %...

Counterattacking critting is based upon the counterattacker and the one being countered. Whoever is being counterattacked, whatever their crit chance was... Will be added upon the counterattacker's rank bonus. Zombies have novice, so 0% rank bonus. I had 130% crit on my screen, however only 30% of it matters since zombies knock down 100% crit due to their 50% protection.

Now when i had my cp gear on with 80% crit chance. It was reduced to 0% crit chance on counter because i would have done 0% crit chance with charge or normal attack. Get it?

Basically. If you would have critted on them with that attack, they will crit you instead. (If not, counter rank bonus is applied and the crit chance is rerolled)

So ranking counterattack benefits the opponent? How does that work? disregard. mindset opposite mode.

Who exactly is attacking who? The zombie vs you or you vs the zombie?

I attack the zombie, zombie counters. Before you ask why, i was mastering life drain, getting countered is the WM substitute.

What is your protection rate for both sets?

Crit gear has 8 prot. Cp gear has 4 prot.

Something's wrong... This makes no sense. How do they crit you with 8% prot, but not with 4%?

Like i said. Pretend you attack them, if you would have critted them, then their counter crits you. If it doesnt. The rank bonus rerolls that chance.

Counterattack is quite odd. The only thing protection and defense do for you is lower the damage you take in this regard. Makes sense too when you think about 100% prot mobs.

So crit rate does have an effect on counterattack crit chance?

After factoring protection like normal.

Hence why i tried to reword it.

Then why does the page say this?!

“	Critical Hit chance for this skill depends solely on the target's Critical Hit rate after factoring modifiers such as protection, plus the skill's Critical Hit bonus. Player's base Critical Hit rate (character window) is ignored.	„

Because that was me editing it. If you have a better phrasing. Go ahead.

I thought i described the manner in which counter crits in this discussion very well.

I mean the last sentence, which was always there iirc.

I think personally it needs to be reworded to promote a better understand, i have an idea, but it is quite wordy.

I am completely lost in this conversation...

Does weapon speed affect the cooldown animation of counter? ex: when i use dagger does my character goes out of the counter animation faster and switch to a different weapon than when i use a claymore?

Probably not. I think it just increases the attack speed, not animation speed, though speed boosts usually speed up movement animations. I don't have the equipment to test this.

Attack speed just affects the delay in-between attacks, that's it.

Just curious, is it like that in KR?

What did they do to it in here? Lower the loading time from 1.5 to what?

They lower charge time to .3 seconds if you are wielding a Knuckle. (From Mabidata.) But it also says at the minute it has .5 seconds charge time so I don't know for sure. (Maybe the table is outdated?)

That's kinda cheap isn't it? I mean, Lance Counter has more penalties as opposed to Knuckle Counter.

For all practical purposes, the new counter loads almost instantly.

What I want to know is if the monster version of counterattack still takes 1.5 seconds, since otherwise that's going to make some monsters insanely dangerous.

Considering the fact that Monsters do share the same skills as Humans, I'm pretty sure it would.

I think the G15S4 Windmill no longer cuts the HP of monsters, so Ifrit can't be killed by its own Windmill.

Mob WM and Human WM are two different things. Take note that explosions do damage human WM and do not affect mob WM. To further illustrate this point. The G15 RP that shakespeare fights Mobs that explode. He does not get damaged from explosions mid WM unlike actual humans.

Wait so g16 counter is...practically instantaneous? then why bother with the knuckle bonus (-.2)? I mean yea, the weapon is on hand all the time and you can prepare better with a barehanded counter but ehh...kinda pointless ya?

Counter is still 1.5 seconds from what i gather and less if you have a knuckle equipped. Unless someone shows a video of KR players doing fast counter without a knuckle. I am inclined to believe this is a typo.

Well that I think about it, it makes more sense when you put it that way. maybe it's 1.5 normal and .5 for knuckle?

Most likely yes. Would be nice if someone tested or extracted the information.

Don't quote me on this, but I've heard from a friend that while the 0.5 and 0.3 load times are correct,you can no longer load counter while stunned.

Wouldn't the last part apply to Lance Counter, too? o-o

I think it's best to wait and see. Many conflicting reports saying otherwise.

Lets get this over with once and for all. Is it really 0.5 seconds?

Yes it is correct.

As a trade off for the -.2 with knuckles, it costs a LOT more stam. Working of which, anyone wanna add that to the table?

From what I'm experiencing, w/ r3 counter I use about 22 stamina to load counter with knuckles. Is anyone experiencing the same thing? I find it weird that I'm using more stamina than r1. (which the table states that I would have used 13 stamina upon activation)

I think that's supposed to be a fatal flaw with knuckles, but we need more testing to be sure...

My counter is r1 and I'm clocking in at ~20 SP for loading it.

Rank 1 Counter. My Stamina is 304, and it dropped to 291.

304 - 291 = 13.

Are there variables in the game's files?

Actually it's 10 stamina. I am going to have to reedit it.

I can load it with exactly that much remaining with meditation active.

Ok actually... Even more testing, With knuckles you can load it with 6 or more stamina remaining, but it uses around 10-12 for activation if you have that amount.

I am just going to leave it at 10.

But it's definitely not 13 though. maybe like 11.5 or something. But I'll leave it at 10.

Ah, right... Doesn't hunger have some factor into stamina usage?

Hunger decreases any sort of stamina recovery to 1/5th of its original. When you take per-second measurements of skills, make sure you factor in the regeneration rate. Players naturally regenerate .4 stamina per second. The best way to get an accurate measurement would be to turn on meditation so that you do not regenerate stamina.

r3 counter+medi+canceled counter after I finished loading. 91% hunger 188 stam 166 stam after loading counter 22 stam spent.

That's definitely not right, since Rank 3 should be lower. Factor our the hunger please.

Factoring out the hunger as in? :o Running a test @ 100% hunger?

Either have no hunger, or reduce your stamina below the hunger line.

o I did that already in my previous test w/ medi.

• Countered 5 times
  • All 5 counters used a solid 22 stamina upon activation.

That's kind of hard to believe... Unless its like Refining, Stamina cost doesn't rise up, then fall.

Um, can't you like use Counter, then switch to Knuckles, wait for 4 sec cooldown to end, then switch back to something else? Or...

Cooldown activates after you counter something if I'm not mistaken. so switching to knuckles would do nothing. You would have to do counter with knuckles to get the 4 second cooldown.

Mikaya is correct. It's always been like that, even now.

Although, with different circumstances.

If it uses the opponent's Critical Hit rate, wouldn't it also use the opponent's Critical Hit damage too?