Dual Guns List Reversion

This needs to stop. Dual Guns is just as much considered a Ranged Weapon, just like an Atlatl. However, Atlatls can't benefit from Ranged Attack because Giants can't learn it, but Dual Guns possibly can because Humans and Elves can learn RA. Also explain to me why we lump Atlatls for a Ranged Weapon despite benefiting from Strength rather than Dex?

Its like how Knuckles and Bare Hands are possibly the same due to utilizing fists and many people believed that until they discovered that Bare Hands can't use Fighter Skills.

Because it made sense at the time and besides, it triggers natrual shield, so why not? I, personally, would rather see it on another page, but I'm fine with where it is. btw, I hit master of atlatls and just outsmashed myself so hard, it's stupid :c... nvm I forgot I had enchanted my altatl for a bunch of max damage on it LOL...

“	Dual Guns is just as much considered a Ranged Weapon, just like an Atlatl.	„

Again, Ranged Attack only benefits Bows and Crossbows. NOT ALL RANGED WEAPONS BENEFIT FROM RANGED ATTACK, DESPITE THE SKILL'S NAME.

“	However, Atlatls can't benefit from Ranged Attack because Giants can't learn it.	„

And even if they could? Again, Ranged Attack only benefits Bows and Crossbows. NOT ALL RANGED WEAPONS BENEFIT FROM RANGED ATTACK, DESPITE THE SKILL'S NAME.

“	Dual Guns possibly can because Humans and Elves can learn RA.	„

So what if they can learn Ranged Attack alongside Dual Gun Skills? Again, Ranged Attack only benefits Bows and Crossbows. NOT ALL RANGED WEAPONS BENEFIT FROM RANGED ATTACK, DESPITE THE SKILL'S NAME.

“	Also explain to me why we lump Atlatls for a Ranged Weapon despite benefiting from Strength rather than Dex?	„

Because the person who made the category was being lazy and grouped bow and crossbow as "Ranged Weapons", not to mention Atlatls weren't even introduced when the category was made.

“	Its like how Knuckles and Bare Hands are possibly the same due to utilizing fists and many people believed that until they discovered that Bare Hands can't use Fighter Skills.	„

You don't even learn Knuckle Mastery until you equip a knuckle. How do you possibly confuse fists for knuckles? You might have joints on your fist called "knuckles", but that doesn't make it an equipable weapon. Not to mention, how could "many people" have believed that when again, back to my main point, you don't learn knuckle skills before you even equip them. The only possible way you could have "many people" believing that is if A: it wasn't released and B: no information regarding what weapons can use knuckles skills was released.

Kevin I really wonder how you became an admin, really...

And despite Combat Mastery's name, why do Knuckles, Instruments, Control Bars, Dream Catchers, and so forth benefit from it?

Like I said, they're both fist-type weapons. Martial Art skills entirely revolve around the fists, and in real life most of martial arts are JUST BARE HANDS; you don't see Jackie Chan using knuckles do you? The weapon itself is just an enhancement to punches.

“	And despite Combat Mastery's name, why do Knuckles, Instruments, Control Bars, Dream Catchers, and so forth benefit from it?	„

I know, right? Why? Why do swords, axes, blunted weapons, knives, daggers, hammers, and nearly every other melee-combat weapon benefit from Combat Mastery? I mean, it's not like the name "Combat Mastery" contains any of those words. In fact, why do bows and crossbows benefit from Ranged Attack. It's not like it's called "Bow & Crossbow Ranged Attack". Hell. Why

“	they're both fist-type weapons	„

Except, bare-hands isn't a weapon.

“	in real life	„

...this speaks for itself.

“	Kevin I really wonder how you became an admin, really...	„

Because Angevon got tired of me requesting deletions. Do note this was a period of time before I was driven insane by people like these.

I missed it when we had an active admin. I mean, I know there's still Angevon and occasionally I see Aramet, and Saiyr. Though at least Kev's still around :D...

I shouldn't. This is bad for my mental health.

So I can see...:c what counts is I still have a buddy, along with info and occasionally pyrus, dante and several others I don't feel like naming...Oneris...to see in the recent changes instead of my several blocks of my own edits (yeah yeah, I know I can make to not see my own edits.)

What if you or Pyrus became an admin? :P

If that happened, I would slowly deteriorate from all the crap I would deal with :c...I wouldn't mind it (I was an ex admin for a wikia that no longer is in place...that does count right?) but neh...

I'd honestly say it's less crap you have to deal with. It's just more responsibility. They fear you as an admin. Not so much as a regular user. Exhibit A.

Because they're all Combat Weapons. Explain to me WHY DON'T Dual Guns benefit from Ranged Attack even though it falls under a Ranged Weapon category.

Bare Hands ARE a weapon, and they're a unique one too. That's why we gave it its own page. Heck, your feet are too!

Hey, I had nothing to do with your demotion, don't blame it on me.

“	Explain to me WHY DON'T Dual Guns benefit from Ranged Attack even though it falls under a Ranged Weapon category.	„

Again, Ranged Attack only benefits Bows and Crossbows. Explain to me why Bows and Crossbows don't benefit from Combat Mastery since it's possible to melee hit a enemy with one equipped.

“	Bare Hands ARE a weapon	„

1. Guess who said that first (and apparently still thinks it).
2. Guess who also made it into a weapon page.
3. Proof?

“	That's why we gave it its own page. Heck, your feet are too!	„

Sand, water, fire, and wind are weapons, too. Cause, ya'know. Anything that does damage is apparently a weapon now.

“	Hey, I had nothing to do with your demotion, don't blame it on me.	„

I wasn't blaming anyone?

I honestly have no idea what triggers that melee kick, and I'm not sure how the damage is of a ranged weapon is calculated into Counterattack, but Windmill's damage with a ranged weapon is from your Bare Hands.

Lets see, you fight and beat the crap out of anyone with your trusty fists, and is affected by damage, injury, critical, and balance. If bare hands are not weapons, are sickles, gathering knives, pickaxes, and the rest of the Ineffective Weapons not considered weapons as well?

...Thank you for showing me your little understanding of the game, but that's not what I asked for.

I asked for proof that bare hands is a weapon in the game.

Using a different number for damage calculation =/= HOLY SHIT A NEW WEAPON!

Not to mention, you windmill with your feet when barehanded (not sure what the giants do). Are feet a weapon now, too? New weapon page! Bare Feet.

Where's your proof that it's not?

That's like asking me to prove that leprechauns aren't real. You can't prove something doesn't exist.

If its not a weapon, what is it? Hm?

It's your base attack. It's just a number that is calculated in place of a weapon, since no weapon is equipped.

Oh wait. That means... numbers are now weapons. Shit. I can't win this.

Anyway back to the main topic at hand... Unless you want to surrender.

You're the one I'm waiting for a response from.

• Bare Hands: Has its own stat values that are overriden by other weapons.
• Dual Guns: Has most properties of Ranged Weapons: Can hit enemies in flight, triggers Natural Shield, etc etc.
  • May I bring Gold Strike into this? Its technically Ranged Skill but if I'm not mistaken it isn't affected by Ranged Attack because its damage isn't from your damage range.

“	It's your base attack. It's just a number that is calculated in place of a weapon, since no weapon is equipped.	„

• Yes, we went over that guns are a ranged weapon. But, despite not having wanted to have to do this once again, "Again, Ranged Attack only benefits Bows and Crossbows".
  • All you did was mention Gold Strike. What about it? How does Gold Strike defend your argument? Jesus.

Ranged Attack's description says nothing about bows and crossbows, it just says "long range attacks". That can imply dual guns are affected too, not to mention the fact that they don't have any skillset masteries.

Heh, that's just nexon's poor wording and that the description is VERY old and will most likely never be updated to accommodate new weapons/skills.

• And what do you mean they don't have any skillset masteries?

Skill Set Mastery (disambiguation)

• Combat Skills - Combat Mastery
• Ranged Skills - Ranged Attack
• Magic Skills - Magic Mastery
• Magic Bolts - Bolt Mastery
• Life Skills - Production Mastery
• Bard Skills - Playing Instrument
• Alchemy Skills - Alchemy Mastery
• Alchemy Production - Transmutation
• Fighter Skills - Combo Mastery
• Puppetry Skills - Control Marionette
• Dual Gun Skills - NOTHING

NOTHING....except for this? http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Dual_Gun_Mastery

• Not to mention combat mastery affects most everything. I mean where is the Lance skillset mastery? That has new skills yet no mastery for it, omg!

That falls under Weapon Mastery (disambiguation).

Wait. So Ranged Skills have Ranged Attack as their "skill set mastery" and "Dual Gun Mastery" isn't Dual Gun Skills'? Is today contradictory day?

That's not contradicting anything. Sword, Axe, Blunt, Lance, Bow, Crossbow, Knuckle, Pierrot, Colossus, Magic Weapon, Shield, Heavy/Light Armor, Guard Cylinder just affect that piece of gear. Combat Mastery further contributes to all Sword, Axe, Blunt, Lance, Knuckle, Pierrot, and Colossus, Ranged Attack affects both Bow and Crossbow, and Control Marionette affects both Pierrot and Colossus.

That is beside the point, Ranged Attack has no relevance to Dual Guns and Ranged Weapons List should be divided.

Ranged Weapons List has already been divided into Bows List, Crossbows List, Atlatls List, and Dual Guns List.

And Pyrus, as I stated before, Dual Guns possess many traits of Ranged Weapons yet they aren't affected by Ranged Attack? Then how is it that Knuckles, Instruments, Control Bars, and even magic weapons possess many traits of Melee Weapons and are affected by Combat Mastery?

I share similar traits with the POTUS. Does that make me the president?

Okay then, lets merge Swords List, Blunt List, Axe List, etc! No, separate the lists. ANd yes, it is not effected by Ranged Attack, why is that so terribly hard to understand it has no relevance to archery? Gameplay isn't even remotely similar to archery, coming from somebody who actually tried guns. The only similarities are:

• They both suffer dearly from lag.
• Like Elven Ranged Attack, they both shoot two ammunition.

That is not enough to make them similar.

Also, let my point out that:

• Combat Mastery - Allows Melee Normal Attack (though there's a separate action-hotkey added for that years after its release)
• Ranged Attack - Allows Archery Normal Attack
• Throwing Attack - Allows Javelin Throwing Attack
• Magic Mastery - Does not.
• Alchemy Mastery - Does not.
• Combo Mastery - Does not.
• Control Marionette - Allows you to control the marionette, it does not allow melee with puppet handles, that's combat mastery's job.
• Dual Gun Mastery - Allows Gun Normal Attack, despite it being a so called "weapon mastery".

Fomor Weapons List has a stockpile of lists of every weapon type.

Ranged Attack means you attack with a long ranged weapon. As I said before, the description doesn't say jack about a specific type, not bows, not crossbows, not gold, not spider traps (even though it doesn't do any damage), not guns. Guns are also used to attack from a long range, doesn't have to be similar to archery.

Because that list was made to easily find Fomorian weapons, rather than have to go through all of the weapons lists to find possible fomorian weapons. It was not to generalize weapon types.

Anyone BUT infodude think Ranged Weapons List should remain?

I honestly don't understand why this page still exists after a day from this thread. . . If nobody disagrees within 24 hours, I will separate the pages.

uhh as it is now? I'd rather have it as a disambiguation page. Ranged Weapon is such a broad term e-e...Then I guess Lances are ranged weapons since they attack from a distance. ;c

Well there was this one melee weapon enchant that I couldn't put on my lance... I don't remember which enchant it was though. Maybe just a bug?

I second Lexis's notion.

Can we at least keep Ranged Weapons Category then?

If it only applies to appropriate lists pages/category pages, I don't really see why they'd be necessary on individual item pages.

Then ... what does Dual Gun Mastery affect? Nothing?

Edit: In fact, do you know what a contradiction is? It doesn't seem like your post was even heading towards explaining how it wasn't one.

Just the weapon. It doesn't do anything extravagant to the skills themselves.

• Ranged Attack directly affects aiming speed of other ranged skills.
• Magic Mastery directly affects Blaze.
• Bolt Mastery directly affects Icebolt, Firebolt, and Lightning Bolt.
• Production Mastery directly affects production-based life skills.
• Alchemy Mastery directly affects most alchemy skills.
• Transmutation directly affects production-based alchemy skills.
• Combo Mastery directly affects damage and cooldown of other fighter skills.
• Playing Instrument directly affects the effects of other music skills.
• Control Marionette directly affects the cooldown of other puppetry skills.

Dual Gun Mastery only affects the equipped weapon's damage and critical, that's it, nothing towards Dual Gun Skill's damage nor cooldown.

If you understood the mechanics of the game, you'd understand they work all just the same. Taking your logic into considering, that makes them all the same skill.

Then again, that's asking too much from you. Can't even differentiate guns and bows. How in the world would you understand mechanics.

Combat mastery does nothing to melee skill cooldowns. And Dual Gun Mastery does boost dmg of Dual Gun skills.

Since there is currently no other weapon type that uses Dual Gun skills, we can't be certain weather it's the weapon mastery or the skillset mastery, but skillset fits better.

Oh, and the fact that DG mastery has the "use" option is pretty solid proof that it's a skillset mastery.

We get that, but why does it matter to this topic?

Just stop. It doesn't matter what it uses (and no, Guns do not use Ranged Attack), all weapon types should be separate, why is this even an argument?

Control bars benefit from Combat Mastery? I did not know that...

It does, and it even affects Wands too.

So theoretically, if you could pistol-whip someone, it would be affected by Combat Mastery too? 8D

They should've made that one of the skills. :L

Counter when empty probably gets boosted by combat mastery.

Well some people prefer the term "bare knuckles" over bare hands...I'm gonna just...move atlatls. you guys have have fun.

Sigh, I give up arguing, I don't wanna piss off Kevin any more...

Any idea where every instance of the term Ranged is used ingame? Would anyone object to replaced Range Skills category to Archery Skills?

I'm guessing "Ranged" came from "Ranged Attack"? But I'm fine with archery. Wait, Throwing Attack doesn't utilize "archery".

Ya, I removed Throwing Attack and Gold Strike from that category.

But I thought they make things ping yellow? Are we just going to leave those two in the Combat Skills category and nothing more?

That was my original intent, yes.

I was considering doing that myself at some point, but decided not to because the game does use "ranged" a lot. The on-screen message when you use natural magic shield says ranged/ and some of the ingame text for archery skills refers to archery skills as ranged. I've seen it elsewhere ingame, but can't remember where.

So, I guess Ranged Skills still stand?

I'm not sure. Ranged is used more often in the skill text, but "archery" does appear in some npc conversations and books. I'd say that what the skills themselves say is more important than the text that's purely story, the use of "ranged" is ambiguous since skill text uses it to refer both to the ranged skillset and the ranged attack/hit/dmg category. I'm not against calling the skillsset "archery" instead on the wiki, as long as it's consistent.

Now that each of the three main dmg/hit types is done by more than one skillset(melee, fighter, and puppets do melee, magic and alchemy do magic and ranged and DG do ranged), and there are more than a few things that defend only against specific types(Passive defense, armor auto defense, magic shields), we should start referring to hits by type on most pages instead of having a whole paragraph about what does what to what on every skill page. This will be easier and less ambiguous if we don't use the same name for the skillset and the hit type.

I was thinking of something along those lines, along with linking Ranged, Melee, etc to a mutual page that describes their abilities, whether it be the passive defenses pages, auto defenses page, a new page, w/e.

My plan is to make a new page detailing damage types(melee/magic/ranged/debuf) (and possibly also the differences between attacks, hits and dmg), then replace the mini essays about defensive skills with one short line specifying the category, with an anchored link to the relevant section on that new page.

What we have on monster passive defenses right now needs a LOT of work. There are actually 2 monster versions of each passive defense, and most monsters that have them have different ranks of both. Also, IIRC, the armored skeletons in Rabie ADV also have autodef on their armor. Edit: and that "advanced Heavy Stander" bull is an complete disaster; It's both non-cannon and inaccurate.

Feel free to execute that if nobody objects, sounds like an excellent idea.