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Non-KR/NA Updates
What shall we do with updates, such as Regeneration / Ninja update from JP? (No do not even think of saying to not include them, I will fight that to the death and admittedly will be close minded on that.) These updates don't happen in any particular sequential order, so, lets say this happens.
- G7
- G8
- Pirate Update
And in this hypothetical, Pirate update happened after G7, but before G8 in JP, but KR already had G8 at the time. Do we put it at the bottom of the list? What if KR an JP get G9, does that go above or below Pirate? Do we want to create an entirely separate header to put them under?
Don't include them! -plays dramatic BGM- It's on now >:D...
-coughs- okay, for the regeneration content, I'd say include it as it gets officially released so we don't get a flood of edits every time new details are released, or at the very least, only make changes as large updates are made to them (and yes, I know it's not going to be released for another few months). Order wise, I'd keep it as g7, g8, then pirate since we don't actually know the order of release and can just change it around later.
What is this pirate update?
Anyway, yes I agree with Yinato.
Pirate was as I said a hypothetical update, hence why it was between/after G7 and G8.
And that didn't answer my question. I meant, JP is getting the Regeneration update before the Saga 2, but KR already has the Saga 2. So do we do
=Chapter 4=
==Treasure Hunter==
==Regeneration==
==Saga 2 E1==
or
=Chapter 4=
==Treasure Hunter==
==Saga 2 E1==
==Regeneraiton==
or
=Chapter 4=
==Treasure Hunter==
==Saga 2 E1==
=Japanese Updates=
==Regeneraiton==
In what order/how do we organize them?
I'd say put it in its own special list for now since this is the NA wiki. It hasn't even been announced if KR will be getting the update at all(I haven't been following it due to exams, so I could be wrong). It seems stupid to list something in JP's release order on the NA wiki for an update that is only exclusive to them (as of right now).
I have a feeling that KR will get it. They got JP's Shadow Bunshin (albeit with tweaks) and recently they got NA's Adventurer Seal system.
Okay, thus far:
- Infodude voted for the first method.
- Blargel voted for the second method.
- Yinato voted for the third method.
Three way tie. Also, what should be done if say, KR gets Regeneration after Saga 3? Then would we adjust it to the KR order like we have been basing future content on this page since then?
Alas, stalemate and no tiebreaker yet.
I guess we can adjust to KR order when they get it.
Yinato actually seems to be confused about something. Whenever we get an update, we're obviously going to list it in the order that we get it in. What we're discussing now is the order of unreleased content that may or may not be in a different order across overseas servers.
Oh, I'm not confused about what we're talking about. If I didn't mention that part, some genius was bound to bring it up sooner or later. Let me make it clearer; it's stupid to go with JP's release schedule over KR's schedule on the NA wiki for an update that is only exclusive to JP, as it would appear as if the non-existent Regeneration update came before the already available Saga 2 update.
I went with method 3 over method 2 because 2 would cause issues if JP wasn't on the same chapter as KR (looking ahead on this one).
I'd say Regeneration between Treasure and Saga 2, then make a note in Regeneration that its currently JP only.
I say we keep it in chronological order of announcement, no matter what server it was for. A smaller note can be made within the section if it's for a specific region only.
All anime related content.
Welp. That's up to debate and Vocaloid is in 'anime art style'. So it still counts.
but...we did get vocaloid stuff. The whole point of inb4vocaloids was to call it before someone said "we got vocaloids but it's an anime" as a counter-argument.
It still isn't an anime as a genre.
So it all depends on how far we're going with anime here.
... you're missing the point and context~ Here's the long version of it with an explanation: inb4 someone's dumb enough to say vocaloid is an anime in order to use it as a counter-argument, only to look like a fool for not knowing vocaloid isn't an anime.
Having to explain really kills the whole point of it you know. -edit- See, Kevin got it. XD
It still is an anime technically.
In certain contexts.
And I'm way too tried to catch on jokes/sarcasm/etc. So hooray to that.
I'm going to go with Blargel on this one. It would be too confusing to decide which server should be prioritized and for all we know we could get content KR doesn't and JP does and what not.
inb4thisgetsderailedfurther
It's just NA didn't really get the Distribution rights to the other content. Only reason we got vocaloid was because nexon NA got the OK for the distribution :x a whole bunch of legality issues and stuff like that has to be done. Anyone can petition "We want [contenthere] in NA MABI!" but it really boils down to whoever made the content for that to give the ok to distribute anywhere else :s...
Anyways, I would wait until we get the actual update before we list anything else. Last thing we need is out of order updates conflicting with current NA updates. Blargel's idea is the best way.
I think we shouldn't even bother with any content updates other than NA. It's not relevant in the way that future skills are. Same with "missed" content especially as NA apparently sees fit to release content in its own way.
Considering you guys consider Weekly Freebirthing "Skipped Content", your argument is null. There is no such thing as "skipped content", and it's causing some confusion on the NX Forums because people think that NA was required to implement it during the Chef Update.
Don't make edits yourself to the page as well then, because adding to the "Skipped Content" is just the same thing as removing it.
Skipped means we didn't get it during its intended patch as it was overseas in its place of origin, which is Korea. We don't know where it is, what happened to it, or if it was moved to a much later patch. So logically, it was skipped over/pushed elsewhere.
G16's "Skipped Content" is a bug, even confirmed by Tasket himself (through the List of Known Bugs/Issues) on the NX Forums.
The Nightmare "Skipped" Content is region exclusive. No other region except for KR got that... except for the Colored Checks, which NA has had for years.
And if you guys are going to go down that road, what about the other "Skipped Content" like the Referral System. This is an NA Wiki, not a KR one.
Edit: Actually, no I'm going to keep throttling this. What about all the other Pets, Items, and content NA never got? The Tortise Shield, Pan Shield, Mysterious Reforging Tools, "the Weak" title, Brown Ostrich Pet, the list goes on and on.
If people are mistaking the skipped content section for content that absolutely should've been implemented already, that's their own fault. The section clearly states that it wasn't implemented for unknown reasons and we don't speculate at all what the reasons are.
For the G16 skipped content, when you say it's a bug, do you mean we're supposed to have it, but because of a bug we don't? Or was it a bug in overseas servers and should never have been implemented period? If it's the former, then it still belongs here. If it's the latter, then we should remove it.
For everything else, I think the logic is that we might still get it in the future even though it hasn't been implemented at the moment. However, since the patch that originally contained the content in KR didn't add it NA, we have no choice but to place it in a separate section. Maybe we shouldn't call it "Skipped Content"? Is there a better name?
I'm with Mikaya on this one. Different wording should fix the problem Imbored is pointing out and we can all be happy, yay.
List of Known Bugs "Royal Diamond Leather Light Armor is not appearing in the commerce shop."
Nexon said it was supposed to be implemented, but it's not. Sounds like they didn't forget about it, or "skip" it, or "exclude" it. It simply didn't update correctly. The same argument could be said about the Auction House revamp not updating as well.
But, if you want to play the other side of the coin here, in Korea, Argel actually has a shop and sells items and whatnot. For whatever reason, NA didn't implement it. Now, let's flip the roles. Would a Korean Wiki consider Same-Sex Marriage "skipped content" because they didn't get it? What about Nekojima that Japan has?
The point is, the list is pointless when you have this.
(Yeah, I can't do links well on Wiki's)
Well, Korea makes the game. So we assume that we will get the original.
Nekojima was exclusive. Same with Same-Sex Marriage, it's exclusive to us.
So then why is it so absurd to think that maybe KR has region-exclusive stuff and immediately write it off as "Skipped Content"?
I was asking a question, which goes hand-in-hand with this entire "discussion". I'm still waiting for my answer.
Okay, let me simplify. The section obviously refers to content that is in other regions, but not NA. The fact that it's called "skipped content" is the most minute of details, but is at the same time your entire argument for removing the section. So again, try making a real argument. I don't care what the outcome of this thread is, but you aren't meaningfully contributing to it.
Suddenly Nekojima and same sex marriage is on equal grounds as Free Weekly RB.
Weekly Freebirthing is not "skipped content". Modified maybe, but not skipped content. Even then, would you say that KR's region exclusive VIP service is "skipped content" because we don't have Removal of Bank Fees, Unlimited Talent Title Changes, and Commerce Log-out/Channel Change Penalty Removal?
Similar to Maplestory, and likely many other localizations, it would probably be best to simply state what WE have, and separately make the observation that other localizations have slightly altered content.
For example, if this were a korean wiki, on the marriage page I would put as trivia that in NA Mabi, same sex marriage is permitted, allowing for gender changes at rebirth without divorce.
This is probably a better solution than trying to consider content as "excluded", "skipped", or "broken" considering we don't have a reliable way to determine if we will or will not eventually get something particular.
"If people are mistaking the skipped content section for content that absolutely should've been implemented already, that's their own fault." Rather than victim blame we should look into seeing if there's any way we can reduce incidences of it. As it is regardless of the warning or reasoning we put on it "Skipped content" inherently suggests that it is content we should have received.
I'll repeat my opinion that I think it's a section we can easily do without. It doesn't seem relevant or important. If we have content then we'd write it that we received it and the content itself will presumably have an article. I think we should just keep this page solely for how the NA client is patched.
I like Mystickskye's idea, just put regional changes in the Trivia area, unless it's a major feature (like the Referral System [KR], or the Mabinogi Open Market [JP], Nekojima [JP], Banquet Hosting [KR], etc).
I'm actually against trivia sections :p
Rather than making dozens of replies to individual posts I'm writing it all here. You're right, we should use a euphemism for Skipped Content because Skipped seems to imply we were obligated to receive the content. Of course we're not but since we cannot combat assumptions we need to adjust the source so assumptions are difficult to make. How about we move every future content (such as Treasure Hunter, Smart Content, etc) under the Skipped Content tab and rename it Foreign Content? We already say in the template that we may never get the content, we could also update on the description.
Yes, I do consider changes to other server's premium service to be "skipped content". No, Argel's shop I would argue is a glitch, not skipped content (then again glitch's are in the eyes of KR Nexon or DevCAT, not the playerbase nor Nexon NA), since we do have his shop but it seems to be empty.
Pets, Cash Items, Gachapon Rewards, and Event Rewards are not on this page, except for the very first few patches that haven't been rewritten in a long time. I do not think they should go on this page, but I do think they should get their own version of a patches page with dates of release. That being said, that is way too big of a project for me.
Just in response to Imbored, you're not wrong but we just misworded the bullet so it doesn't make much sense as is. What it should say is, the icon is change and the colors at certain values changed. Lets say right now its blue at 10k or less in a check, it would be red later. (Hypothetical colors.) I'll fix that in a bit.
Yes, yes, yes. Same sex marriage and Nekojima IS skipped content to KR. I don't see that as a valid argument that what is currently listed in the skipped content section isn't so. In fact, after we resolve this, I would like to add Nekojima to the list of skipped content (or quit this wiki).
I think I responded to all the points mentioned since my last response? I might have missed a few and only skimmed through re-reading.
This next part is just personal and my view on this ideology, you don't have to read the rest if you don't want. I will say this bluntly, I care about this wiki because it is a valuable resource to new and old players alike and it has helped me many times in the past and probably will in the future, and I want to make sure it stays that way. But if we remove information of pages simply because we don't have it yet or a small group of people think we won't get it (not saying they're not right), then I will quit this wiki. Not saying you should care, I don't think you should. But this community would be beyond saving if we embrace that kind of ideology.
It'd still beg the question why we need a Foreign Content section at all. No one has yet to give a good reason why it's important. Even with proposed changes it'd be a woefully incomplete and inadequate resource of little use.
And if you're gonna threaten to quit then just quit rather than making with faux dramatics. I've already stated how the wiki suffers from the "anything/everything" attitude some editors have when it comes to what should go on the wiki. It's not too far of a call to say it's in part why the wiki has required new dedicated staff members to help clean up.
Argel's shop being empty is not a glitch for us. It was intended (why, I have no idea) that we didn't get his shop or his Shadow Missions. The bug is that he displays his shop (albeit empty) for us. But if Tasket put it on the list "Not a Bug" that his shop is empty, then it's not a bug. (Since it's not a QA person who has the final say, he just submits the report to the developers like all QAs in a game company does).
As for the Premium Service, it's region exclusive. Japan has it's own Inventory Plus service as it includes Guild Service, did any of the other regions have that? No. China has a special service only to them which is VIP+, which includes some better stuff (I can't read Chinese, but the picture explains it well enough). I have no idea about Taiwan, since you're required to sign in to even view their cash shop stuff. Korea of course, has their stuff, and we have ours.
I'm too lazy to continue right now though, as I have Finals I need to study for.
I'm just going to say this straight out and feel free to disagree, Tasket says bullshit. He has marked things that KR explicitly said wasn't a glitch or was purposeful as a glitch (and vice versa). I seriously doubt he knows what he's talking about. Either way, we must trust the superior jurisdiction (Nexon KR) over the word of the inferiors (Nexon NA).
Mystickskye, you are using the wrong level of scrutiny. In a wiki, all information belongs by default. You should be asking why not including something, not why include it. A better argument would be why include foreign/future content on this page and not give it their own page (though I think keeping them in one place would be simpler). By default, all information should be mentioned in full somewhere. The only exceptions would be gamebreaking things, abusable glitches (we are still trying to redefine how we determine if something is abusable or not, that's a conversation for another thread), and hacks. However, that isn't to say we have an exclusionary rule. Information obtained from illegitimate tools (you know which) are still allowed at the moment.
No. What does and does not belong in a wiki is entirely subjective, which is why there are disputes about this in the first place. One easy counter to that assertion is mods and exploits. It is widely agreed upon that they do not belong on the wiki. What counts as an exploit is sometimes open to discussion though. My stance on this is that too much information is a bad thing. There is a possibility of useful information being drowned out by extraneous information. I remain neutral on this particular discussion of "Skipped Content" and foreign content in general, but I felt it was necessary to point out that the above quote is your opinion and not a fact.
Does tasket know what he's talking about? Who knows, but who are you to say? As for trusting the "superior" jurisdiction that is of a different culture, and therefore is comprised of a different set of standards (as opposed to someone who has contact with the "inferior", yet local jurisdiction), is stupid. I guess Manus being black is a glitch then? Oh wait, it's called localization. While you may think Nexon NA may be inferior, they do have some say as to what/how something does/doesn't get implemented, but whether they do it the way they intended to is a different story.
I could write a 20 page paper on how wrong that statement is. If that were the case, the amount of useless trivia that would have otherwise overrun this wiki would have made pages cluttered to say the least. (mythology, tie-ins with vindictus, etc.)
In a wiki, all information belongs by default. You should be asking why not including something, not why include it. A better argument would be why include foreign/future content on this page and not give it their own page (though I think keeping them in one place would be simpler). By default, all information should be mentioned in full somewhere. This is definitely not true. In fact taken as is it runs counter-intuitive to the purpose of the wiki which is at it's simplest to aid/serve the general populace. I'll say it (yet) again, the wiki suffers from your sort of attitude.
@Blargel This is an opinion, yes, but there is no such thing as too much information. We can not be too detailed (so long as we're not explaining how to open your inventory and equip a bow and arrow in the description of an archery skill). The more information, the better. The question is not if we have too much information, its how are we organizing it. Also, in the same post you're responding to, I clearly said there are things outlined we should not talk about, including the things you are using in a response to prove my statement wrong (at least that's how I am perceiving it). But back to the point, in order to not drown useful information with deemed less useful information, the solution would be to separate the two.
@Yinato Valid argument. I'm not saying we should or should not listen to Nexon NA, but based on even their patch notes, significant things that they write can be proven wrong with simple ingame testing. They seem to be uninformed in everything other than events, ignoring for the fact that what they tell Sabina to say is also wrong. I'm just saying, lets take it with a grain of sand, not as the law of the land.
@Mystickskye The feelings are mutual.
So assuming we do keep future content and skipped content (not saying we are but for the argument if we are), what are peoples opinions of mixing the two into a foreign content section, or its own version of the patches page (which would include unreleased patches such as Treasure Hunter), and make it explicitly clear all or some of these updates and parts of the updates might not ever be added to NA?
There is such a thing as too much information.
-stares at Lugh's Trivia-
I tried cleaning that out once. Guess who opposed?
Okay, I definitely didn't read the post I replied to carefully enough. Still you say there's no such thing as too much information yet you also say that we shouldn't be describing how to equip a bow and arrow, etc. You're clearly drawing the line somewhere on what is too much information, just like the rest of us, but this line appears to be in a very different place in comparison to the majority of other editors (as far as I can tell anyway... you're the only one I know of that is this vehemently opposed to removing certain things).
Yes, as I said, there is such a thing as too much information, I purposefully contradicted myself in the same post, but as I said, that is not the type of thing we are doing, this is a different case entirely.
Majority does not equal right either, not that majority is right or wrong. If the majority of the game wanted to remove information about housing so only those who knew could benefit and players who do not know cannot find out, that does not make it right either. A sort of exaggerated example but that is exactly how I see it. There is not legitimate reason to remove the information, at least none mentioned in this thread so far as far as I can see.
Translation, you screwed up and have no idea what your view is on the matter.
Way to state something without actually stating anything...
Everything you've said thus far is based on your own closed-minded views and opinions. Let me make this clear; you are but one "editor" who is trying to make the wiki into your own vision. Your reasoning is circular, your points lack common sense, and the fact that you've stated that you will be closed-minded on the matter means that no matter how valid a given reason may be, you will just turn around and say "nope, not a good reason".
Kay. I have decided to post what I seriously think about Skipped Content. I think the only thing that can actually count as 'Skipped Content' in the list, is the Chapter 1 Final Dungeon Nerfing.
- RB system and Bank, Housing, etc. updates seems to be more for their servers benefit. KR's bank max changed due to high inflation.
- Royal Diamond not in the ducat shop, whether it's a bug or not, I don't see it as a skipped content. What's wrong with some item not being in a shop? If this is the case, we might as well apply it to every other shop changes, if there are some.
I don't think Skipped Content should be ridden of, I think the contents inside it should be changed.
I don't think any other content, other than KR's more major contents(Story, skill, etc), should take part in this wiki, unless there's confirmation that it'll come to NA. I rather not have random pages in here to raise people's hopes up and only for them to be useless because it doesn't come out at all in NA.
Man...I use "I don't" a lot. 8I Tried to make it sound like my opinions and this is what I get.
Where's my Lesser Panda? Obviously skipped :c We did eventually get the White and Black Ferret as a combo package ._. years later.
Pets aren't really 'content' though. Not in the Patches page at least.