I'm making a new thread because the previous thread got too off topic. Back on topic, this thread is about proposal of creating an Unreleased Content section (or page). This would be a merge of the Skipped Content Section and any future updates (such as Treasure Hunter, Smart Content, the Drama of Iria 2). This thread is not about the debate of whether or not we should include Japanese content or where. This thread is not about the legitimacy of what is currently in the Skipped Content section or in any of the listed unreleased patches. This thread is about whether the Skipped Content and any Foreign Content should be merged into one section or page. And with explicitly saying (because evidently the foreign content tags don't make it blatantly obvious due to recent vandalism) that we may never get any of this content and we are not entitled to them nor is NA obligated to release them, but it is possible we may get them.
If you don't like the recent vandalism just remove "Skipped Content" in general. It's misinformation. Calling it "Unreleased Content" isn't going to make it any better for some of these people, because there is still going to be misinformation. I rather not have other server content here(Unless it's something we know for sure we're going to get) because it gives people hopes that they will get it.
If we only include foreign server's content in here that we know 100% we are going to get, then that would include almost nothing. Many generation patches in the past came without even one days warning, we would have to write everything at the spur of the last minute after the patch happens in some cases. As I said, this is not a debate as to whether or not we have unreleased content or what is considered unreleased content, this is, assuming we keep with tradition and keep unreleased content, where we put it.
And if people get their hopes up after a clear warning outlining that we may never get any of the content and that it is at the discretion of Nexon America whether or not they choose to release any update and when, then that is their fault. They should not feel entitled or give Nexon an obligation, especially after a clear warning reminding them of that.
It was fairly obvious we were going to get Master Chef and Treasure Hunter. Story Content as well. But those smaller details and such is something we'll never really be sure of.
People get their hopes up because they get misinformed, which is my problem with "Skipped Content" the title of the section itself is misinformation.
Why not just hide all future content and display it the day (if) it arrives?
That's a good idea too. So far we have:
- 0 Votes for Unreleased Content
- 1 Vote for Hiding
You're also missing at least 3 votes for just flat out removing the skipped content and the updates that we aren't 100% guaranteed to get. As Nise said, it does provide false hope, which the vandal from yesterday made very pretty clear.
As I said, this thread is not about whether or not we should include any content. If you want to make a thread for that please do so. This thread is assuming we keep this information (not necessarily what's currently in "Skipped Content" or what are currently "Foreign Content"), and how we will organize them in the future to be prepared for future patches should they come.
So what you're saying is, in the face of larger opposition, you choose to exclude them and discuss what should be done, even though the majority are in favour of removing it? I guess that means you don't want people who are against the proposal to take part? If so, then quick question...how are you going to discuss a proposal of creating anything if you're completely censoring the opposition?
As I said, this is assuming we will be writing on updates that have yet to come. And why not? I will write why we should keep them somewhere, although that is not the purpose and I urge you to create a new thread on the matter if you want to continue.
In the past having Skipped Content has helped, it would have helped even more if we had it before the time we did make it, as NA seemed to do this often, like adding the Special Inventory tab at G15S2 instead of G14S5 or G15S1. As I said, this thread is assuming we are going to write on unreleased content. The question of this thread is where. So far two ideas have been brought up in multiple threads in the past. One is removing misleading words like "Skipped" and add a helpful euphemism such as "Unreleased". It is not our fault if the read comes up with some false conclusion or feels entitled, or places obligation on NA. But there is a responsibility in us as information providers to write clear warning and remove any possibly misleading wording to prevent assumptions as much as we can. Another also good idea is Imbored's idea of writing/preparing for unreleased update like normal but not showing them publicly until the update is officially announced/released. The question here would be do we want the viewers to see that information here? That's the kind of thing I intended for this thread to discuss.
Also Yinato, please pay attention to which Reply button you are hitting, we don't want to constantly make quote pyramids.
Edit: You might have trouble reading the spoiler tag in the New Messages page. Try refreshing or going to the Patches' talk page if the Show button doesn't show up.
We still want "Skipped Content" removed. That's our point.
I'm fine with how we place unreleased content like Treasure Hunter over there. But I want Skipped Content removed.
So in the previously stated Hypothetical situation, lets say Treasure Hunter is G19 and any subsequent updates are G20, G21, G22, etc. With you being fine with future content such as Treasure Hunter (G19), you would likewise be fine with the next major update G20 and then G21. But if we get G21 after G19 and do not get an announcement for G19, you suggest removing any notes written on G20 we might have already written, and should we get G20 after G21, we write on G20 then?
That's also a valid option but I don't really think its practical. Just to be clear, when you say you want Skipped Content removed, do you mean you don't want the G20 to be recorded at all should the situation arise; or are you talking about what's specifically in the Skipped Content section at the minute, and not the entire concept of Skipped Content?
I agree and also do not want a section labeled "Skipped Content", but I want to remove that umbrella and label it as Foreign Content or Unreleased Content, because that is what it really is.
Does the majority agree that you should remove any notes on G20 should we get G21 after G19 and not get G20 until later (and with no announcement saying we'll get G19 after 21)?
I don't want a "Foreign Content" or "Unreleased Content" or a "Skipped Content".
I'm fine with putting a tag above the things that are not released yet, like Treasure Hunter.
If something in the update doesn't get added in the NA server, we remove it completely, we do not talk about it and we do not give false hope to people.
But can you answer the hypothetical? Lets put it this way, Druid is G19, Diva/Aria/Starlet is G20, and Vate is G21. If we got Druid, then got Vate before Diva/Aria/Starlet, what would we do with Diva/Aria/Starlet? That's the kind of thing I consider Unreleased Content, and is what I'm referring to as "Skipped Content" in this thread.
Why would we get G21 before G20? Well ignoring that.
Then we remove it unless Nexon says other wise.
Okay so thus far we have:
- Unreleased Content Page
- Unreleased Content Section
- Unreleased Content Section without titles, and all under a spoiler box along with a status unknown spoiler box
- Content on the page but in coding only, not viewable to public.
- G19, G20, G21 method
- Nise Panda
Kapra, stop with the votes.
It's utterly pointless and you're trying too hard to make everyone 'stand alone' because you can't find anyone to follow your cause.
I'm actually undecided and can agree with all of these points. When I say my cause, you people say go with the majory and/or the majority do not agree with me. When I do turn to vote, now you're telling me to stop?
You're making this freakishly complicated. It doesn't need to be complicated, but you somehow manage to do so. Instead of keeping the votes to a direct point of view, generalize it.
- Visible on the page and better outlined/detailed
- Visible on the page and better outlined/detailed unless we do not get an update in the order KR received them
- Nise Panda
- Content on the page but not visible to anyone but editors in the coding
There's only so many ways I can say the same thing, happy?
Maybe we can have just 1 big unreleased content box with all the content undivided from g19 g20 g21 and have a box for status unknown updates like tortoise shield.
There is the nexon forums board specifically for wanting things not released here. They can post there if they want an item in the status unknown section. They come here for the information to post about it there.
The official Mabinogi forum mods cannnot answer to what gets here and what doesn't. They only make official news once they get an okay from the higher ups.
They have never once answered to SAO content ever coming here nor Free RB ever coming here, even with the crap load of threads made about them.
Maybe because free rb is coming already? Just not yet, so they don't have to say anything about that. We don't know. They never respond to any future content people ask for. They literally made a board for what people want to come here, and they made a sub forum about considered items. The forum mods are indeed just forum mods, but bigger people also post there and get the messages of the community. They are the ones providing false hope, we are just supplying information. A status unknown box provides only information about what we did not get, and a notice saying we may never get these things, and a link to the forum board should take the hope off us and onto nexon.
Yea, that was what I was suggesting by the "Unreleased Content" voting option. So you agree that unreleased content notes should be viewable by the public but be better defined as content that may never be released, and etc. But you have the condition that there is no names such as G19, G20, G21, etc, just everything grouped together under one header?
Last edit: 18:48, 26 May 2014
We don't know when we will get what, so it might be more accurate to not include g19 g20 and such, but we can keep them in order of korea, and maybe more defined bullet points. With nexon reaching out to the community for unreleased content, I say it should be viewable, and when we don't get something expected in an update we can move it to status unknown? Am I understanding that right? What do you mean should be done when we "move it to status unknown"?
The recent vandalism and forumers using the wiki as a source for adding "Skipped Content" tells me that we also fuel the false hope.
They never respond to the future content because they're not even sure we're going to get it. They don't know what Nexon plans.
And there's a complete different thing between "What would you like to see in Mabi?" and "What should be in Mabi?". "What would you like?" is completely opinion based on what the player would want, it doesn't speak what Nexon would want or what Nexon can give.
The Suggestion and User Generated Content section of the forums provides ABSOLUTELY NO certainty that said creation will ever be added.
So you're suggesting we keep the skipped content under the Unreleased Content header or however you name its counterpart in your example, but label the bullets as Status Unknown if it doesn't come in the associated update?
I was thinking more of status unknown being its own box along with a future content box, and we move stuff to the unknown box as we go, and we maybe put a link to the nexon board for users to complain about not getting it, so it would be on nexon's shoulders. What was this vandalism? I missed it. I think users getting their hopes up would be their own problem. Just like people hyping up a highly anticipated game only for it to be bad. Shouldn't ruin something for everyone just because of one bad person. Of course they could always go to mabination for future info if that's what we want.
I do like the idea having a section of "Unreleased Content" so people can compare/hope/expect. It can provide people a peek of what to look forward to even if it's not the true role of a wiki. On that note, we should never call something skipped content unless someone official says we're definitely never getting it, and anything "unreleased" should have a legitimate source (info of Mabinogi[game] as opposed to Mabinogi[local version]). Of course then, we'd have to watch for pages like "Unreleased Content, Pokemon Party Paradise!"
Except "Unreleased Content" in your description already exists. We already have Treasure Hunter and Smart Content in this page.
Exactly, my understanding was that this was a discussion on whether to keep and maintain what what would be called "Unreleased Content", as per the last few sentences of the first post.
What exists is technically "Future content" which someone has already confirmed that we will receive. "Future Content" is necessarily "Unreleased Content" but not vice versa. However, due to the unknowable nature of the content, we should avoid labeling it as "skipped"
"Skipped Content" is different. It's content that was not released in a patch that KR had, which is something the majority of us wants removed because it creates nothing but false hope and is the cause of a vandalism that happened not too long ago.
^ I'm going to have to agree. I would just do away with it if it's going to cause issues, just as the recent vandalism did.
Besides, weekly rebirth is broken imo.
I've wanted skipped content section removed years ago. Where were you all when that thread was happening lol.
I wasn't as active years ago?
And I've only recently saw a problem with the "Skipped Content". Mainly because of people using the wiki as a reference to why we didn't get X content.
My thought is, why not just remove all future content and leave it hidden (or if you can't hide whole pages, pre-write it and save it to your guys own computers or something).
No matter what you guys do, having info from overseas that has the possibility of changing when/if it arrives to NA always causes headaches.
For example, the Ninja Skills from Japan, or the SMART Content from KR. Write the pages and hide them. No need to even bother revealing those pages to the public until it's arrived in NA.
And just because we're getting an update, doesn't mean we're getting everything with it. What if we don't get a certain item from the Treasure Dungeons (Example: Ancient Shyllien, which are used to make even more powerful bullets than the bullets we have now in-game could possibly be left out because maybe Nexon feels that Guns are already powerful enough), people will complain that it's Nexon's fault because the Wiki listed the stuff.
People are always bickering about what the wiki says and treat it as if it's written in stone and that Nexon should adapt to that, so I say just hide it all and give it a test run for one update.
The thing I'm thinking about is that, just because it isn't listed here on the wiki, doesn't mean the info isn't somewhere else like mabination or even from others in game. People will get the info someway or another. I'm just not much a fan of missing information is the thing.
But removing it would go against this very thread!
On topic, that would be the best solution, to just remove it while it's still unclear and re-add when it's confirmed. This is a wiki for mabi NA, not a wiki for things that may or may not happen. It'd be far more organized if it only had things the we currently have and things that we are guaranteed to get.
So do you think it should be in the coding of hte page but in invisible <!-- --> tags or do you want them completely off of the wiki, even if its not viewable unless you click edit page? And if the latter, then would you agree that we would be able to put it on User Page subpages instead?
I agree with Meru, if it's not from the wiki, they will get the information somewhere. I don't think refusing to mention it on the wiki would necessarily decrease the amount of players disgruntled about not receiving an update.
Mabination links are banned from the Nexon Forums, the Mabinogi World Wiki links are not.
Seriously? lol Well, anyway, they don't really have to link to things to talk about them on the forums or in game. We all just seem to be at a disagreement here.
I personally don't think we should determine what to do on wiki decisions based on what squabbling goes on in an unrelated forum. Make things clearer, more precise, and less misleading? Sure. Censoring information based on the stupidity of someone completely unrelated to us? Insane.
Let's just get to the point.
- Skipped Content. If you want to get rid of it, say yes or no and post why. If you chose to get rid of it, content that has not been released in a patch that was suppose to, will be removed.
- Making a section or page for Unreleased Content/Foreign Content or keeping it the way it is, putting a tag above content that are not yet released. Chose whichever and explain why.
- Completely rid of content that is not yet released on NA and only add it once it comes out. Yes or no and why.
- Show all unreleased content. Yes/no and why.
- If we do have Foreign/Unreleased Content, should we stay exclusive to Korea only content or also include content from other servers such as JP? Yes if non-KR is okay. No if we should be KR-only (if at all).
If you have any other issues or another option, post it and explain it. You can also just agree with another.
-replies to self-
- Yes. It creates false hope, misinformation and we can't ever be 100% sure anything is if ever even skipped.
- I prefer keeping it the way it is. It gives a general idea of what we will get, but whatever listed shouldn't be too detailed. It should be kept simple.
- No. Because of number 2.
- No. Because of number 1.
- No. Stay exclusive to KR, unless KR gets it themselves or any commentary by NA indicating we will get it.
- No skipped content shouldn't be removed if we get things out of order. False hope is at the fault of the reader and if they still have false hope after we say it may never come out, it is at their fault. I do not think this would be a good reason to censor future content information.
- I do not want to keep it the way it is, but I can agree with both a section or a page specifically for Unreleased Content. Of course, I'd rather keep things the way it is than delete the information altogether like #3, but making a change would be ideal in my eyes.
- No. See 1.
- I can agree with Yes and No, but would prefer Yes.
- Yes, because we do get content from JP. A number of things in the past, the most notable being the "Rush of Love" sidequest chain used to get Fighter skills, is in NA and I think pretty much every server BUT KR.
That's just a fact. Its your job to pick what to believe. It's your job to do research if you want to make sure what you believe is right. It is your job to keep yourself entertained. It is your job to assure you get what you want. That being said, the only thing "stupid" is to assume others are obligated for your cause. Others may choose to help you, like the wiki. If you choose only believe part of what we say and completely ignore the other, even giving another obligation to someone else, that is nobody's fault but your own. The wiki is meant to help, if they don't want the help, then its their fault for refusing help.
And please do not call people stupid, please instead describe what you think they are doing wrong. Internationalization, please.
Victim blaming is inherently stupid and the people that practise it are stupid. As people in our position of instructing it's our job to do what we can to make sure that people are instructed with as little misunderstanding as possible. So if people get the wrong idea rather than blaming them we act so as to make sure there won't be future misunderstandings.
If I say "Morgan and I built a wardrobe" and someone chooses to only read "I built a wardrobe" even though "Morgan and" is no more or less legible, then that is their fault. I do not see going around that.
Yes, but what if it wasn't clear that Morgant also built the wardrobe? Which in case point, is the problem with "Skipped Content" and any Content that wasn't added in previous patches.
Yes, but the wiki also holds up misinformation because of "Skipped Content".
Which is the purpose of this thread, to correct "Skipped Content" into hopefully "Unreleased Content" or "Foreign Content".
1 - Do not get rid of it. The purpose of a Wiki is to hold information regardless. NA doesn't make all it's content alone. It takes most of it's content from overseas, and overseas gets most of it first, so knowing what might come out eventually (and a rough chronological order) would be helpful. Skipped could easily go into a sub-page.
2 - Make it a sub-page. The main page should only have content that applies to NA since it's an NA wiki and the page is a chronological release/update order list. However updates from other regions can come to NA even if unexpected, and being able to gather and format info on potentially upcoming updates is good, so having an official sub-page in order to keep it accessible seems best.
3 - Do not get rid of them. It may not be in NA yet, but having pages for people to fill out what info we do know of means that when the updates hit NA people have a head-start on filling the pages with info, which benefits both the readers and contributers.
4 - Yes, but on a sub-page. A wiki is designed to hold information, and while unreleased content may not directly apply to the NA version of Mabi, the unreleased content can hold insight into existing/upcoming NA content/changes and may reach NA eventually.
EDIT: 5 - Yes, with the same reasoning as above. Non-KR content has less chance to get ported to NA, but less chance is not no chance, and I like data availability!
1 - Do not get rid of it. The purpose of a Wiki is to hold information regardless Incorrect. 4 - Yes, but on a sub-page. A wiki is designed to hold information, and while unreleased content may not directly apply to the NA version of Mabi, the unreleased content can hold insight into existing/upcoming NA content/changes and may reach NA eventually. False.
While I'm certain you possess a proper definition of "wiki", you should probably avoid ridiculing others for their opinions in this section where they were simply asked to vote and defend.
What do you consider the purpose of the wiki then?
As much information as possible.
Kapra, understand the good line between Good information and Bad information.
And you forget, this is the 'NA Mabinogi wiki. Not the some other server and if we add that into it, then other server info is on a fragile line.
Good or bad information is in the eyes of the beholder. If we're not going into too much detail on something, and the information is not incorrect or misleading, I fail to see why something would be considered "bad information" outside of someone's personal views.
And you're telling me all the trivia you posted wasn't bad information?
As I said "Skipped Content" is bad information. It's bad because it misinforms. If you think misinformation is in the eye of the beholder, then obviously something isn't right with you.
We all agree that the name Skipped Information is misleading, hence the entire purpose of this thread.
And All the trivia I posted? Almost all the trivia in this wiki was posted by Infodude. If you're referring to me adding Bread from Nao onto pages, I was just reproducing what Infodude did on other pages because I'm anal and do not like inconsistency. May I remind you I'm not the only one who does that kind of things.
Edit: And just to add on to this, I never said I am a saint. I may have added incorrect information or misleading information in the past, and I have. It would be foolish fallacy to say I am an exception to any rule. What matters is looking back and saying "Oh, what I did there was wrong", like I am doing right now with naming it "Missed".
The entire purpose of this thread for you is to change skipped content into some other thing with the same god damned content. Because you're so willing to keep information we are not 100% sure of.
If you wish to question a specific piece of information you are not 100% sure is correct, then make a thread for that, one thread can only handle so many issues. Things like bullets of information that are incorrect need close scrutiny and to be done case by case. This thread is assuming any content we did not get that we write about has facts that are true, and no opinions, and as detailed as possible as to not get to the point where it is too detailed. The same standards as the rest of the patches page.
Dude. Just. Dude. I don't think I can ever find someone so stubborn and freaking clueless about the things we discussed and posted.
Let me write in bold for you so that it goes through your thick skull of yours.
Skipped Content is a completed flawed section as it has information we cannot even say that they were skipped. if they were ever planned to be released in NA. or a glitch or some sort. or purposely removed by Nexon it self. or an exclusive content.
Which is why I and others have been suggesting a "Unreleased Content" section which applies to all of the above except for a glitch that has been confirmed to be a glitch. I get that, you get that. I get that you don't want any updates or parts of updates we get out of order or have no confirmation to get at all, and want foreign content to stay it is. Lets just get out of this cycle of confirming the same thing over and over again as if the other person is saying something different, okay?
But how do we know it's "Unreleased"? Maybe it's just exclusive.
By my definition, exclusive content is unreleased content. Unreleased means it is not released. If its exclusive to other servers and not NA, then it is not released.
And guess what Kapra. Guess what the opposite of unreleased is? It's "released" it gives nearly the same effect as "Skipped Content" it's false hope.
If you're referring to giving false hope by saying Exclusive Content will never be released to servers not in the "in", Doppelganger/Shadow Bunshin was initially exclusive content to JP and TW, it was also initially labeled foreign content on this wiki despite not being from KR. It was later released over a year later(?) worldwide to all servers, no longer being exclusive content and no longer being unreleased content. There is hope. Although it is wrong to create false hope, legitimate hope is okay. Though I guess this will now become a debate about what is false hope, so before you say anything, to me false hope is hope where there is a 100% chance that what is being hoped for cannot ever happen. Legitimate hope is anything 99.99% or less.
If you want to make sure people on another website don't say they are entitled to something, removing information on what they say they are entitled to should never the correct solution unless the information itself is faulty, nor should the solution be kill all hope unless it is said that there is 100% chance no hope of ever getting content, such as Nekojima.
We also got told well prior that we'd be getting Doppelganger.
I'm not killing hope. I'm killing false hope.
Know the difference.
And do you agree with my definition of false hope and/or legitimate hope? If not, what is yours?
Who on this god damned wiki even ****ing cares about the definition of false hope and real hope? The general consensus is that people are currently believing in things that are neither truth nor lies, there is absolutely no certainty. That's why it's false hope you numbskull.
And what if it does come out? Well good for them, they got what they wanted. No one is hurt, yay.
And what if it doesn't? Then they believed in absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Then people complain about how NA Nexon took away what is "RIGHTFUL TO THEM" and blah blah blah.
This is starting to sound like a bad debate on religion. Lets shift the conversation then if you want. Does it really effect the wiki's interests to censor information in favor of stop people on another website from thinking something?
Yes. If it turns into vandalism and I'm up any day to remove information that is useless to the NA server.
Vandalism is practically completely random and could happen on any page for any reason or even no reason at all. There's no reason to remove something just because some random person might want to randomly mess with a random page on the wiki. They'll do it someway or another, and the only thing we can do is correct it when they do it. It's not an excuse for removing things.
An information is considered useless if it is false, misleading, has too much or too little detail (objectionable), or is in the wrong place (in this case, then you move it to the right place, not remove). That being said, in this case the only thing "useless" would be the name of the section, not the content, so your question is redundant.
"Skipped Content" is misleading.
And I still don't want content that wasn't added that during previous updates because then it's still misleading. "Unreleased" still sounds something along the lines of "Oh, this still hasn't been updated yet."
Then at this point we're making a "Foreign Content" page.
"Unreleased" sounds like something along the lines of "Oh, this hasn't been updated yet" because that is exactly what it is. That is what the majority wants so far. "Oh, this hasn't been updated yet" does not mean it will and must happen, it mean it hasn't happened but could, that's sort of the point.
Most of the people in this thread are in favor of a page specifically for Foreign Content if a section for it is not viable, Rydian for example, as well as Meru I think.
Then you're basically admitting that "Skipped Content" = "Unreleased Content". So now I'm against Unreleased Content as well. Congratulations.
Oh yes, most of these people and you know how many people this is? 5. 5 people, you're basing 'majority' with 5 people. Good job man.
By my definition, Unreleased Content can include but is not limited to:
- Content updates from other servers that we have not gotten (yet).
- Content updates from other servers that we DID get, but did not get the same things of.
By my definition, Unreleased Content does not include:
- Events or cash items from other servers. The Patches page does not cover that, but I wouldn't reject the idea of making a Patches-like page for things like that, but I probably won't contribute or have the enthusiasm to do so.
- For example, if an item is obtained from an ingame shop like the Commerce Shop, then it is "Unreleased Content" for the patches page. If its an item obtained from an event NPC's shop or from a gachapon or directly from the cash shop, then because it wouldn't be on the Patches page if it were released, it wouldn't be on the Patches page's Unreleased Content section if it is not released.
- Content that NA specifically said we will never get, such as Nekojima.
- My only exception to this rule is if we are comparing things we do have to things we were told we will never get, such as comparing Doki Doki Island to Nekojima. Though, the patches page doesn't do that so this thread doesn't pertain to that.
So yea, Unreleased Content can include "Skipped Content", but not necessarily the other way around.
And a supermajority of 5 is still a majority. How many people did you expect to respond to your questions? 30?
5 is still an extremely small number comparing to the list of wiki editors. And who on earth said this was based on votes? I asked why for a reason. Ridney or whatever had a terrible reason, which was "All information belong on the wiki." You of all people should know thisbbetter than anyone else considering how much you protected trivia. His vote is as moot as his reasoning.
And if you still haven't noticed, I dont just want the skipped content section to be removed. I want all evidence of "skipped content" removed. Which means all content we didn't get in previous updates with the same reasons i've been repeating for hours. It's misleading and it doesn't belong on the NA wiki
I'm not sure why you keep saying I defend trivia, I cannot remember the last time I advocated for any piece of trivia besides one specific line on the Bread from Nao page.
That aside, I have two things I want to discuss with you.
Rydian never said "All information belong on the wiki." I urge you to please re-read his post, and tell me or him what you think is flawed in his logic.
I also do not really see the difference between "Skipped Content" and "Foreign Content". Why should we have one and not the other? Lets be consistent.
He said the purpose of the wiki is to hold information regardless. It's pretty much the same thing as "If it's related to Mabi, add it." And yes that is completely flawed. Just because something is related to Mabi, it doesn't make it important to the wiki,
When did I say they were different things . _. I also dont want Foreign Content either, it's useless to the wiki. But Foreign Content is possibly the most broad term for "Things we don't have and we're not sure we will get. Because they're foreign." But I repeat this again, I don't want to see that happening because some people may decide to detail it in every way possible. Creating more "Will we get X?" From players and simply because this is the NA wiki. Unreleased and Skipped Content both sound like "Things Nexon didn't release." Thus my issue.
"Just because something is related to Mabi, it doesn't make it important to the wiki."
Why not? Please give me an example of something (that isn't a lie) related to Mabi (that doesn't break the policy) that should not be on the wiki and explain why. (It doesn't have to be something that actually happened before.)
Events on other servers, where to find Mabinogi merchandise and paraphernalia, address of Devcat studios, other providers of Mabinogi. Version number of other services. A lot of information is rather irrelevant in any place on this site. However, we should not feel responsible for, or feel the need to control, the potential thoughts and interpretations of our users. There is never such a thing as fool proof.
The presence of information of unreleased content is not necessarily technically helpful, but also not necessarily harmful if we present it in the formal manner that we usually do. It may not be needed, but there is a non empty set of people who will certainly appreciate it. As Saiyr mentioned below, the "Patches" page is certainly not the best place for it, so we should definitely remove it from this page. Beyond that, it is not entirely harmful to recreate the information intelligently on another page.
-stares at all the deleted trivia-
Shakespeare's plays are one.
|@Nise Panda/Sakura (I'm not sure which of your guys' names to use)||
As I have said in this thread and other threads in the past, if the information is not harmful, incorrect, etc; but is just in the wrong place, then lets move it to the right place or make a right place.
Kapra, I don't think you know what Trivia is anymore. Trivia is RELATED but unimportant facts. If it wasn't related, we wouldn't add it.
And if you want me to continue that list, speculation and theories don't belong on the wiki, even if it's related to Mabi. We has plenty of outfits KR and JP has but we don't ever mention them.
We don't talk about the differences between events. KR's balloon event rewards were different from ours and that doesn't belong here.
On the contrary, I do not think you understand what Trivia is. By definition, trivia is important information where relevance exists but is difficult to tie to the subject. Do not confuse trivia with the slang definition of being a sense of insignificance, wikis and the wikipedia do not use this definition. If the reason you keep bringing up Trivia into this thread is because you consider Unreleased Content to be Trivia, then yes, I proudly advocate Trivia. Information needs a place, if we cannot put information in a proper place in a page or give its own page, we should put it in Trivia until we can decide a place for it. Lets get down to what is important and not argue over definitions of a word, please.
Speculation and opinionated views do violate the wiki policy, though.
We do not mention what outfits NA has that another server has due to lack of effort and enthusiasm, not as a rule or norm. Likewise with what other servers got out of events. If nobody is willing to provide information, they do not have to. But if someone is willing to provide information, they should be allowed to. What SHOULD be regulated is where the information they provide is.
https://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/trivia http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trivia http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/trivia http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/trivia http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trivia#English http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trivia?r=66
In conclusion, I disagree.
By definition, trivia is important information
From what god-forsaken dictionary did you take this out of?
In what possible, if any, context would this hold true?
So, uhh... How about that status unknown box that I would like :D... Says nothing about unreleased or released. A good old box saying we have no idea what's going on with this content, but here it is in case you wanted to know! Even if it isn't here, it will be elsewhere, and people will still be complaining all the same. It's expected of them by now. I recall when the information wasn't on the wiki, they just linked to mabidata instead or just copy pasted all the information from it. We won't be stopping false hope at all, just redirecting it. Everyone's going crazy about ninja stuff, but it sure isn't here on the wiki. I'd rather have the wiki as my one stop place of information. If it helps I can deal with Imbored's suggestion. Even if the content doesn't happen, it's still nice information to have. I don't think the wiki users would want it to go away either. Maybe big red letters telling them not to give their hopes up would help them. I like big red letters :D... Also, I think it's too late to take it away now. Everyone already knows about the future content. It can not be stopped, mwuahahaha. Maybe some vandal will enter all the information anyway. People will believe what they want to believe. I think the reallll question is why doesn't korea want to give us a meager little shield? I saw a gm with a tortoise shield, and he was waving it around. Also, long ago a girl got replacement clothes from a game master. They were supposed to be premium summer wear, and they were, but it was a completely unreleased to this day version. Just going on and on now, so I'll just end it now before I keep typing. Thank you and good night. There's just nothing we can really do to actually solve this. Also, is saying this content isn't released and may never be released, really wrong information to say? I mean it is right in saying that. As long as we keep story line and skill updates here, I'll be good I guess. We should at least have those because people like to plan out their skills. Yes, this post is all over the place and filled with things no one cares about, isn't it?
I hope you know Imbored's suggestion is as good as removing the content entirely and posting it once it gets released on NA. "Hiding it" makes it completely invisible to the readers and you can only view it by opening up the editing, that's not easily accessible information considering how messy the editor is.
premium summer wear is a terrible example, because that's not even a patch. The vandal happened thinking the wiki was telling information about how Free RB was skipped is legit. I can care less about outfits, because they don't even belong on this page and I can care less about how other websites tell the same info, my issue is people using the wiki like a source for these kind of things. The difference between mabidata and the wiki is that, people take the wiki very seriously at times.
Sometimes it's not even Korea that decides not to give us something. Sometimes it's just Nexon. Sometimes it's just a bug. Sometimes it's licensing issues. etc. etc. There is never any clear reason and most of the time Nexon will not answer to why. Why are we even bother adding information who's fate and future we have no clue about? Especially when it's certain content that should(I'm using should very lightly) have arrived in previous patches?
If you think it's false at least answer why. I do agree that a wiki's job isn't just to hold information and if the information is wrong, it doesn't even belong here. Which is the problem with "Skipped Content".
The "why" is fairly obvious and follows what I said. It's not the wiki's job to just hold information. A lot of the recent editing has been all about that. A future content section in the context of listing patch updates is qualitatively unhelpful and actually doesn't offer that much insight. Significantly more helpful are forum threads and the like which discuss upcoming content in detail but we don't do that here even for content we have.
Then your problem isn't with foreign content or whether we should include it. Your issue is the quality of pages such as Patches which list changes/additions with each update.
I'm not sure how I need to explain this to you given that you didn't get the general idea the first time around.
In a nut shell, the inclusion of "Foreign Content" will impact the quality of the page by nature of it not meeting the needs of the wiki sufficiently.
1. Keep if renamed to "Unreleased", avoid "Skipped" as "Skipped" implies we should already have it. "Unrelased" provides hope in the absence of confirmation. The banner should say there is no indication (similar to "in the box" games). But as this is not the role of a wiki, we should not lose sleep over it. Exclude if in doubt.
2. Label confirmed future content "Future Content". Let people know what we know is coming
3. No, unless it can't be confirmed. As stated, it looks good for the wiki to be ready on day one of an update.
4. "Pokemon Paradise Party!" is unreleased content. (everything unreleased by #1 should have a source)
5. I'll say yes for the remote chance that we might potentially even generate our own content (I feel this may happen because fail message changes). We may overlap with other versions in odd ways and times. (also question is awkwardly phrased)
1. Yes. There is no such thing as "skipped" content, and I still stand firmly by it. Each region chooses what they want to release when or if. Otherwise, we should be putting in information that KR doesn't have, but the other regions do (like the Mabinogi Open Market in Japan, etc).
2. If #3 cannot happen, then yes. Otherwise, no.
3. Yes. This is a wiki for this region of the game. I really do not believe that a wiki needs information that is not in the game (unless it's something minor that is a difference between regions that would normally be placed in the Trivia Section). Doing this will cut down on people believing every word (you have to treat the readers like idiots, harsh, but it's the truth). I don't see other game Wikis putting in info that isn't released on their service like Mabinogi does, and they do just fine. If players want to get their "unreleased fix", then they can go scour the foreign websites. I would not be opposed to keeping unreleased content hidden however, to cut down on the time to edit pages when they do go live in this service of the game.
4. No. See #3.
5. If we do have Foreign Content, then yes, include the other services of the game. There is no reason for it to be selective on what is added and what isn't. Basically, all or nothing.
Minor tangent here but, what is Mabinogi Open Market?
New issue #5, if we do have Foreign/Unreleased Content, should we stay exclusive to Korea only content or also include content from other servers such as JP? Yes if non-KR is okay. No if we should be KR-only (if at all).
My argument for #5 is is Yes, because we do get content from JP. A number of things in the past, the most notable being the "Rush of Love" sidequest chain used to get Fighter skills, is in NA and I think pretty much every server BUT KR.
I'm a hypocrite, I brought the subject back up in the thread I said shouldn't discuss it. But we might as well while we're at a vote.
The Mabinogi Open Market (MOM for short) is basically the Mabi equivalent of the Maple Trading System. It's currently only found in JP. Due to what happened to the MTS and how it affected other games, I'm going to bet that we'd have a better chance of getting FMA and SAO.
I'm not good with links, but here's the link to explain it (in Japanese of course). Japan's MOM Sorry if I didn't do it right.
Time to go fix my post then for #5.
I'll test that later, I have a character on KR Lute. But either way, that was content initiated in JP and not KR that came to NA before it came to KR (assuming it came to KR). Thus, I don't see a reason to discriminated between content from one server and another.
Ugh, I hate formatted questions like this, but whatever. 1. No, don't remove. I still see no real reason to remove it. 2. Yes, sectioned area for this please. We have been given this information, and we should have it available for others to view. 3. No, information that has been formatted in such a way that everyone knows it might never come out would be the best way to have it. 4. Yes, if it is a huge update with skills and part of the story it should definitly be here. People like to see what's coming. 5. If it's a major update like an entire skill set I don't see why we shouldn't no matter where it's from. Isn't nexon hq in japan now?
Since you guys apparently allow any discussion devolve into nitpicking and finger pointing (let the vote happen!)
2 out of 5 properly presented votes favor obliteration of any unreleased content
4 out of 5 favor keeping guaranteed future content (1 prefers it be hidden from the public until release)
Question 3 is redundant but 4 out of 5 are against deleting it (a different 4 out of 5?)
Question 4 is also slightly redundant but 2 out of 5 are against all unreleased content
4 out of 5 favor including content from all servers, not just korea pending the outcome of other questions.
What it looks like so far is:
never call anything skipped, but there is a slight majority of voters (at this time) who care to keep a carefully labeled section of "Unreleased Content".
keep guaranteed future content, so we can be properly prepared for what we know is coming
unreleased content should be complete, not limited to korea but only available if we get a majority in favor of maintaining unreleased content
If you want a vote to count, follow sakura's format and please stop the bickering and defending
If you count the rest of the discussion for number 1, Mikaya and Yinato have both agreed to removing it.
Rather than including opinions from another thread that didn't even vote on what you suggested we base it on, lets invite them to vote.
This thread is stupidly long (and just flat out stupid).
- Using loaded words like "censorship" won't get you anywhere. I recommend you stop using the word.
- I don't think vandalism is a very large burden, and I think it more often happens for reasons unrelated to Skipped Content (tm). I don't consider this a valid point of argument in this thread.
- Stop making content-free, crappy posts.
Here is my non-vote as a semi-objective, semi-ignorant (read: useless) opinion from someone who doesn't play this game anymore: The Patches page should not include information about other regions. It should only have content available to NA. That means removing Skipped Content (tm) as well as the current patch numbers at the top, which are incomplete and formatted slightly inconsistently as well. I'm not so convinced that the content needs to be flat out removed, but it should be on another page. One possibility for surfacing the page is to put a banner like the incomplete/cleanup banners that hides the link to the page unless the user clicks something saying they understand that the content may never appear on NA, in the same vein as a spoiler box.
Either way, I doubt this group of people will resolve this any time soon, so this may be a decision made by the staff.
I use the word censorship because that is what it is, I cannot think of another 1-word phrase to describe deliberate hiding of information.
I could agree with your non-vote opinion. As Rydian said, we could have a page like "Unreleased Content" or "Patches/Unreleased Content" and with a link from the Patches page that is only clickable if you accept a prompt, I could write up something along those lines. Though I'm not sure how I'd be able to write one on the page itself if people go directly to the page and not from the Patches page. We might be able to do so if we treat it like a spoiler box.
I like the wording of Wikipedia's article on censorship:
- Censorship differs from editorial selection. For example, a publisher cannot usually publish all books presented to it, and a library cannot usually contain all books published. Consequently, they choose what to accept, either for its potential profitability, in the case of a for-profit book publisher, or according to its materials collection policy, in the case of a library.
In this case, it would be considered editorial selection because it's an explicit choice to narrow down the category of information to accept to avoid confusion and/or misinformation. You may be of the opinion that there's no such thing as too much information, but I would disagree strongly and be completely baffled if you took a hard stance on that.
Whether or not this information is too much is up for discussion, but I won't waste time arguing whether or not there's such a thing as too much information. Calling it censorship simply reinforces your opinion to keep the content using a loaded word with obviously negative connotations, which will just further annoy people who disagree with you. These people want to deliberately hide regional patch content on this wiki in the same way they want to hide the birthday of Abraham Lincoln (yes, an extreme example); they simply don't see it as relevant.
I believe there can be too much information in one place. For example, if on the Magnum shot page we describe how to open your inventory, how to obtain a bow and how to obtain an arrow, how to equip a bow then an arrow. I would consider that too much information. But if we had a page specifically for explaining how the interface worked, specifically for saying how to obtain and use items, I do not think that is too much information. Almost everything has a place in my opinion, so long as it is not incorrect or badly worded information. It doesn't have to be long and it doesn't have to be short, but I do not think there is a reason something should not be somewhere if it does not violate the policy and there is room and people who are willing to offer their time to provide the information.
Why don't we just go ahead and do that? Just make a branch page from patches with a link to "Other Versions" and we can all fight about keeping that page there; it already takes far too long to load even this thread. As it is, version number is highly irrelevant because it basically just counts how many times they've changed the game, which often includes bug fixes. Then the "Patches" page will only contain information about NA patches (which it should). A page designed to list our patches doesn't need to do anything more than that and I'm certain we can all agree. Then those who like to compare can go ahead and take the effort to look at the other page which is out of sight.
Because many of us find it irrelevant to have a page filled with content unrelated to NA Mabi.
On the flip side, many do find it relevant to have some cursory information on other regions. If it's on a page you never see, it's not so much different than having Vindictus info on a userpage. (Although I grant you this enters a slippery slope of "how much is too much") I find total disallowing to be too extreme when it comes to providing information.
Assuming for the moment this information is relevant to Mabinogi, there are people willing to provide this information, it does not break the policy, and there are people willing and wanting to read this information, why would we deny a contributor to write this information?
I mentioned somewhere this is an NA wiki and we should more so focus on anything related to NA Mabinogi than anything else. So yes, this would mean dropping "Skipped/Unreleased" Content that we did not get, despite its intended release. When we get it in a major patch, it'll be brought up and noted in the notes. Otherwise, it should be removed.
So that's a no on 1 and a yes on 3. Can you answer 4 and 5 in your opinions? If we must include foreign content, should it be publicly viewable or only viewable by people who edit the <!-- --> tags? And if we must include foreign content, should we do KR-only or also include content from other servers like JP?
It should be removed...period. not even hidden either.
"If you're confused, just reply to the initial post and it will make a new pyramid bracket at the bottom, and we'll just continue the conversation from down there if you want."
It seems unlikely that this discussion will come to a conclusion. Saiyr has suggested that the higher ups just decided in this reply, which I assume also does not include the Decepticons. It seems like the best course of action for something that two sides cannot agree or compromise on.
Yea, we all presented our best arguments and I doubt anyone will be able to convince anyone they haven't already. If the Admins do decide to take over this case, we'd better just stop and wait.