Question and Answer/Archive2

This is page 2 of an archive of questions asked on the wiki's Q&A page. It contains questions 26-50.

Q26 resale value

I noticed that "Resale Value" was being added as a column at the end of Store Locations on a few of the equipments. I think it's a good idea, but how would we notate it if the item is not sold by any NPC? Would we add a blank Store Locations table with just the resale value column filled in? --Powder Rune 06:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Definitely no to the blank stores table. Maybe we can make a separate section for resale, although I don't think it's that important, since it's always ~10% the purchase price, and few people resell items. ---Angevon 16:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

there are mods that display the exact npc purchase and resale value on every item, someone with that enabled can fill those in. we need the purchase price for items not sold by npcs because that price is what determines stat gain for ego feeding.--Sozen Cratos Focker 22:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

We don't need to put store price on the item's page when it's not sold by NPCs, though. I feel we should keep that info on the ego charts only. ---Angevon 18:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It also determines how long an item can stay on the ground and the recovery fee from town office.--黄恒升 ^{☞ 评论 ☜} 18:56, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

and i haven't tested this yet, but it might also control burning exp--Sozen Cratos Focker 23:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It does. --Kevin _(»Talk«) 02:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Adding a resale price to the store location may confuse people, they may think it can only be resold to those NPCs listed in a particular table. Why not simply list the resale price in an items description section, e.g., "Resale price is 300g". --ZRoc 02:47, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

maybe it shouldn't be in that table, but it should definitely be on tat item's page somewhere.--Sozen Cratos Focker 03:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I started putting it right under the item's description on Walrus Robe (M). Is that okay? I can't think of a better place to put it. ---Angevon 20:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Looks ok to me --ZRoc 08:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

This may not be known by new users of the game or wiki but some item's resell value may include a fraction of a gold coin and NPCs appears to round down. For example, a single Bait Tin resells for 1.5g but the NPC will only pay 1g for it but will pay 3g for 2, 4g (instead of 4.5g) for 3, 6g for 4, etc. To explain this I have used "Resell value is 1.5g per Bait Tin but NPCs round down for odd numbered stacks" in the Bait Tin page's Description section. --ZRoc 00:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Q27 upgrade sequences

The Upgrade Sequences section on every clothing/armor page is rather long. Would anyone mind if I hide it with the hidden text template to shorten the page? ---Angevon 21:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Go for it. I don't even think alot of people go to the pages for the upgrades. --Kevin _(»Talk«) 21:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I go to the pages for upgrades often, and I also think they're a lot cluttered by the sequences. I'd be more than ok with condensing them.-Demaetri 23:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Q28 ingame questions

Who else agrees that we should have a page like this for ingame questions? -- Ember Incubus

You do that on the forum. --Aramet 22:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Q29 equipment sorting

Our equipment tables have a sortability feature for the price section. However, it doesn't sort properly. There may be some deeper mediawiki thing to change this but my searches have proven fruitless on that end. To address this issue, should we remove the commas in item price tags on these tables? The comma is causing the issue. I.e we would need to use 10000g instead of 10,000g. ---Angevon 00:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

At a glance it is easier to understand 100,000g than 100000g. However, sorting the prices in large lists, like those used in the Equipment lists, is more helpful than using the commas. I would still suggest the commas be used where sorting is not required, that is, for prices given in small lists (such as, NPC's Shop lists) and for prices not included in lists. --ZRoc 00:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, removing the commas doesn't stop the problem. It's frustrating. ---Angevon 02:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed my own very long and inaccurate comment as the link given below to Wikimedia Meta-Wiki's Help:Sorting page explains it a lot better XD --ZRoc 05:35, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Wanna volunteer to remove the 'g' from every template on Tailoring List? ---Angevon 05:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Done --ZRoc 06:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It has to do with what data types (numerical or alphabetical) the table's column is sorting, go to Wikimedia Meta-Wiki's Help:Sorting for more info. --ZRoc 06:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Q30 how to add data

i would like to add a rare print to the tailoring list (yes it has been implemented), but the data is alot different from other sections of the site, how would i successfully do this?

Miyani what do you mean by a rare print and please add your user name when leaving a question or comment (using 4 tildes, i.e., ~~~~ after a question or comment will sign your name and date) --ZRoc 10:34, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

What item is it? Since I've taken over the formatting for the tailoring list, I can add it for you if you get me the details.

Or, if you'd like to do it yourself, edit a template already made (such as Template:DataMaid Long Dress), copy all of its text (control+A, then control+C), start a new page for the new item with the same naming format (Template:DataItem Name), paste the copied text (control+V), then replace the info that is wrong. This is how I've been doing it. ---Angevon 18:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It's a very rare tailoring print from the fishing boat (graceful armor). and i do apologize for forgetting to leave my name. ---Miyani 22:41, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I got it! thanks so much for the tip! it took me a long while to figure it out though ^^" Miyani 02:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Q31 NPC fave item

Is there a quick way to determine if an item is an NPC's favorite item or is it necessary to continue gifting an item until their conversation changes for the better or worse? Someone added "Hammer" and "Underwear" as favorite items for Nora but I'd like to check if this is correct, as "Bread", "Slice of Cake" and "Heart Cake" were already listed (and I have used these to successfully increase her intimacy level in the past). --ZRoc 10:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

A. The only way to really check if an item is an NPC's favourite is to actually give it to them. NPCs will have three different "tones" towards different items, with many different dialogue for each "tone". The tones are Bad, Neutral, and Good. A way to check which dialogue goes with an NPC's favourite item is to give them an item that they already like and test it for yourself. --Zephyre^TALK 14:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Wow a really late response but better late than never lol. OK, so there is no quick way, I'll have to do it the hard way when I have more time. Thank you for the answer =3 --ZRoc (Talk) 16:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Q32 dye palette

Dye Palette Information: New feature to the wiki

hello i had an idea for equipments, that i think would benefit the wiki and mabi community, to put dye palette information on the individual equipment pages. i am happy to do a large portion of this, on my user page under coding tests is a template in stand alone form and in use with a mock up of an actual equipment page. would the admins mind if i started implementing this? Miyani 00:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you make the template look more like the tables we already have on the equipment pages, so that it fits in better? ---Angevon 03:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

If you make them fit in better, you might also want to make the three colors on the Dye Preview part to be very different, so that people can easily tell the difference between the parts. BladeBlade 15:13, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Since this is will take a lot of effort to implement, in the meantime, we can use the table I've been using on most clothes pages. It has a simple verbal description of the dyed part (not as useful but at least it's something). For an example see Cores' Healer Dress. --- Angevon (Talk) 16:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Q33 hats list

So, on Hats List the table is organized alphabetically, but most of our other lists are in order of increasing store price. I think we should make all the lists go alphabetically. Yes, I know there is a sortable option for that, but I don't think that many people know how to use it, and it is much easier to locate a specific item on the list when it's alphabetized from the start. Thoughts? ---Angevon 03:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer lists that are organized alphabetically. When editing a list it makes it quicker as I'm looking for a name rather than a price and it looks tidier. --ZRoc 08:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Q34 weapons splash

Would displaying the splash information for weapons in this way be worth doing? It looks a bit more consistent with the main table in the 'Base Stats and Information' section. --ZRoc 17:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I've been thinking about putting it into a table, but i don't think that example is the best way to do it. A table with only one row just doesn't look right. It would make a lot more sense to 3 rows for radius, range & damage, and 2 columns for the value and for the value and for what the number means. and i was thinking about attaching it to the base stats table.--Sozen Cratos Focker 17:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Attaching it to the base stats table makes sense but you would need to make a new template. I made it 1 row as this saved space as compared to what is being used now or a 3 row table as suggested above. If its attached to the base stats table then just add it as a single row to the bottom of it. --ZRoc 19:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Would something like Base Stats Table Example work for the base stats template. Note that the following would need to be added to the input data on a specific weapons page

|Radius=x

|Angle=y

|Damage=z

where x, y and z would be actual values for that specific weapon. --ZRoc 19:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In regard to the base stats table, would it be better to have the inventory image and inventory size moved to an image gallery in the Description section, as is done for equipments. Then all the equipped images can also be added there and the base stats table re-organized to something like New Base Stat Table Example. --ZRoc 21:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Q35 name change

Why has the name of this page been changed to Editorial? The original Question and Answer title was an accurate name, whereas an editorial is a story written in a newspaper or magazine representing someone's opinion on a subject. What has that got to do with answering users' wiki related questions? --ZRoc (talk) 13:09, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It's back to the original title. --Aramet (Talk) 17:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Cause Ember is an idiot. --κєνıи _{(»тαıĸ«)} 03:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Ikkisuki just has a grudge on me. - =- -- գռփող400206^hawk400206 (խոսել^Talk | օգնություն^Contributes)

This is going to turn to war soon. --κєνıи _{(»тαıĸ«)} 03:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Evidently. But i refuse to participate in an arguement. -- գռփող400206^hawk400206 (խոսել^Talk | օգնություն^Contributes)

Q36 Kristell

The page for the NPC Kristell has no edit tags for the sections but the whole page can still be edited. I thought I had done something weird but it doesn't appear to be the case. Is it because of 'Template:StyleMonster (view source) (protected)' which is listed at the bottom when the whole page is being edited? If not could someone let me know what is causing it? --ZRoc (Talk) 00:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's the monster template doing it. ---Angevon 02:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you --ZRoc (Talk) 23:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Q37 Jewel Upgrades

I'm going to start doing Jewel Upgrades. How do you like the table's format for Spiked Knuckle? I just copied JP's table completely. I'm not sure if the required jewels should be put underneath the details like that, though. Perhaps there should be another column, like right before the NPCs, with them instead. Ideas? ---Angevon 18:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

It looks a bit confusing as it is, maybe a seperate column for the required jewels would be better and next to the NPCs seems as good a place as any. --ZRoc (Talk) 05:23, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I changed it and I think it looks better now. ---Angevon 14:32, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It does look better. --ZRoc (Talk) 06:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Q38 Magic School Shoes

Would this table be alright for presenting Equipment Combination Effects for a single item? --ZRoc (Talk) 10:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure I guess, but I'd rather you put it on the bottom of the page rather than smack in the middle like that (but keep it before the upgrades sections for clothes/armor). To be honest I really don't understand the combo effects system to really help you with the layout. ---Angevon 15:32, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Moved it to the bottom of the page. If anyone has a different idea than using this table or wants the table altered then please suggest them. --ZRoc (Talk) 18:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I have included an Equipment Combination Sets with Active Status Effects table below the Equipment Combination Effects table. I hope it helps. --ZRoc (Talk) 09:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to this but I'm beginning to feel that having all this seperate information on the various equip bonuses is rather roundabout. We already have a page that sums up how equipment bonuses work and details what gives what. Having both specific equipment detailing on various equipment pages and different sets of items to achieve various bonuses just seems incredibly redundant and clunky what with the tables used for them.--Mystickskye 01:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Now you say that, after I put all that extra work into the second table XD. I have only made tables for the one item so that people could say if they wanted it or not. If its not helpful then we wont use it. If others could have a look and give their opinions it would help. --ZRoc (Talk) 18:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Haha, sorry bout that. I only just noticed this page (how?!). But yeah, it's more to me that it adds more to a page that people potentially have to go through and it's not the easiest to make heads or tails of. Personally, I'd suggest simply listing what bonuses the item does (or as it may be, can) give and have a link to the page which details equipment bonuses (which could probably use some work, no one seems to know it exists). This way the information is still easily attainable (as well as initially presented) but isn't as obtrusive and gives people less to have to go through at the beginning.--Mystickskye 02:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

See what Angevon has put in the Starry Wizard Hat's description section, is that what you would prefer? She doesn't seem to mind the tables I made but you better talk to her for her opinions. The reason I made the tables was because other pages had equipment combinations on them but with no explanation and made it look as if those were the only possible combinations. The table on the Equipment Combination Effects page does not easily show what combinations are possible (especially if more than one status effects can be obtained). The Magic School Shoes have Mana and Stamina Reduction but any equipment combination cannot get both effects at the same time. However, you can make an equipment combination that includes the Magic School Shoes but has both Mana Reduction and Explosion Resistance, even though the Magic School Shoes don't have Explosion Resistance. If the tables make the page too cluttered then I can make them collapsible, as I am doing for the NPC shop and part-time job tables. If others really hate it then I will agree that they should not be used. --ZRoc (Talk) 05:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, what Angevon did for the Starry hat is pretty keen. Anything you can see in the mouseover of an item in-game should be right up there at the top of the page in my opinion. I should state for the record, I was never very keen on the combinations pages had previously for much the same reason you've stated. Regarding what you've done, rather than cluttered I's say clunky and/or unwieldy would be a better way to describe it. Going off what you said about the current Equipment Bonus Page, I'm of the opinion we should overhaul that page instead because honestly, that page should be able to do everything for a person regarding Set Bonuses. We shouldn't have to put individual sections on the pages of each and every item that can be part of a Set Bonus.--Mystickskye 08:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh that hurts, I thought they looked quite nice XD If you dont want the equipment combinations listed on an item's page then shouldn't we be removing the "Upgrades" and "Upgrade Sequences" sections as they are basically doing for upgrades what I did for Equipment Combination Effects? Upgrade Tables are listed on other pages for most if not all categories (e.g., Sword Upgrades, Knuckle Upgrades, Shield Upgrade Comparisons, etc) of items that have upgrades and Upgrade Sequences should be restricted to those pages by what your saying. --ZRoc (Talk) 09:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, yeah. I don't see why we have them on every single item page, some of the items marked with those tables can't even get those upgrades iirc... I can understand for weapons as weapon upgrades are very specific and pertain to that one particular item (moreso than any similar data for equips) but constantly repeating the same info for other things like armour and clothing seems a bit inane to me. A lot of the weapon upgrade paths could do with being cut back too, faaaar too many redundant paths...--Mystickskye 15:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I wont use this on other pages but I'll leave the Magic School Shoes page as it is for now. I understand what you are saying but I would really like more opinions. I dont want to make the pages uglier or harder to use but the info in those tables seems helpful. However, a single page listing all possible combinations and resulting activated status effects would also be a worthwhile idea, if someone was prepared to make it. Also, I'm not about to prune any of the upgrade sequences... way too much work and you would get so much grief from those who bothered to make them XD --ZRoc (Talk) 23:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Q39 Policy

A policy question. Should we allow/disallow long signatures on talk pages ... ? They're kind of distracting and annoying to me. ---Angevon 17:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you. At most, I think a signature just needs a short link to the the user's talk page and/or contribs along with the user name. A sentence or icon doesn't really seem necessary. --Aramet (Talk) 20:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed --ZRoc (Talk) 00:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Totally agreed. --κєνıи _{(»тαıĸ«)} 08:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, this isn't a forum.--Mystickskye 01:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I want people to sign and date their contributions to my talk pages. Mainly because keeping accurate records is part of what I do for a living. Without accurate records, I don't want someone to come to me later with some total bullshit that I have to figure out. Plus my user talk pages will be archived in a form that NOBODY can change (except me, but I won't). So, if you guys make any comments on my page, you absolutely must sign and date whatever you write. While I won't necessarily stop you from using custom sigs (though I would MUCH rather you didn't), you must follow your sig transclusion with five tildes (i.e. ~~~~~). Or I'll just remove anything you write, then ask you to use a normal sig instead. If you can't follow this rule, don't even bother using the wiki to contact me. Use the forums instead. Better still, use IRC. I hate forums (I only periodically monitor the M-World forums, so really, the best way to contact me is by way of the forums). --Irjustman 01:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought we were talking about long signatures like the one Random used in Angevon's link, not the normal sigs and date you get from using four tildes. Did I miss something? --ZRoc (Talk) 04:40, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

True enough, sorry about the tirade. But yeah, it should be sort, sweet, and to the point. The who and when. --Irjustman 08:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

*stops sweating* whew, last person I want mad at me is the sysop. No problem and I understand your points in your "explanation" (it wasn't a tirade... can I stand at ease now sarge?). Its your server and your rules, though you've been one of the most quiet and easy going of sysops I've known. You obviously don't consume enough high caffeine beverages, your destroying the image of sysops everywhere XD --ZRoc (Talk) 16:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Q40 Boss category

Q: How do you add monsters to the Boss category? I've been looking at other pages trying to figure out how the field bosses mixed in with normal enemies manage to show up in the category by themselves but I can't figure it out. How do you do it? ;_; This is because G7's been out for a while now yet the Giant Lion/Alligator still aren't listed under the Field Boss category. >>;

Fixed. There is a page for each of those field bosses which redirects to the page that contains the info, e.g., the Giant Lion page redirects to the Giant Lion section of the Lion page and I added a "Category:Field Boss" link to that redirecting page. To get there yourself, click on the Giant Lion link above, it will take you to the Giant Lion section on the Lion page, go to the top of the Lion page and you will see "(Redirected from Giant Lion)" just under the page's title. Click on the link provided in "(Redirected from Giant Lion)" and it will take you to the actual Giant Lion page. Edit the page and add the "Category:Field Boss" link (which I've already done). --ZRoc (Talk) 07:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Q41 Image Transparency

hello i was wondering how you activate transperency on image backgrounds? thank you Miyani 12:34, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the program you use to save the file. If you're using MSPaint, you can't do it at all. If photoshop, just clear the background in the program so that the checkerboard gray/white pattern shows as the background, and then save it. For other programs, I don't know. ---Angevon 15:34, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Q42 New PTJ style

Okay, this is kind of like a vote. (Ends on the second of september.) In opposed to the PTJ styes people implated using show/hide feature. How about this.- A Random User 01:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Just with Basic

PTJs
Basic Task Rewards Special Rewards Harvest 1 potato 250g N/A

With Intermediate

PTJs
Basic Task Rewards Special Rewards Harvest 1 potato 250g N/A Intermediate Task Rewards Special Rewards Harvest 2 potato 500g N/A

With Advanced

PTJs
Basic Task Rewards Special Rewards Harvest 1 potato 250g N/A Intermediate Task Rewards Special Rewards Harvest 2 potato 500g N/A Advance Task Rewards Special Rewards Harvest 3 potato 750g N/A

Vote

This vote ends on 09/02/2009 at 5 Pm PCT. Choose the Left side for lets use it and the right side for lets not. Days left: X The vote has been ended early due to overulement. This template will not be used. - A Random User 01:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

A Random User FFVIISephy hawk400206 Thirty Five I've seen this wiki a while and decided to make an account to vote. Kyoko Dito

Demaetri chrissyofhailfire ♫ѕταя♪ 黄恒升 - too many boxes around boxes, annoying Miyani Angevon - needs a color format like the other wiki pages CosmicI'm not sure there are that many PTJs to be a hindrance, really. User:ZRoc - Complicates entering info for new users, width is restricted (at the moment the tables width can be varied from NPC to NPC to make things look tidier), style does not fit wiki. Aramet - I agree with ZRoc. Also, I'm still trying to understand several codings / templates, and I've been on here a while. Voichi - I agree with ZRoc and Aramet. Mystickskye - Simply, why? As it is, incredibly boxy and ugly to look at. Ikkisuki Irjustman - Is this gonna kill my box if you went to implement this?

Side Note

Why not just put Template:HiddenTextHeader and Template:HiddenTextFooter between the difficulties of our current PTJ page? ---Angevon 23:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Becuase this seems kind of better. - Random

What is this vote really about? The only difference I can see between the "old way" and this "new way" is the color scheme and maybe the way it's formatted. Other than that, the template/hidden texts serve the same purpose. So what's the deal? Currently, my vote goes with the "old way." Is this referring to the Part Time Job page? --Demaetri 00:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

How exactly is this different from using the templates like Angevon suggested and what you've done here? I don't really see much of a point in change for change's sake and "this seems kind of better" isn't really much of an arguement for me.--Mystickskye 01:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• I do like the way it looks, but I don't really see a reason for a new template. --KaedeKit 00:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• -copies what KaedeKit said- But anything is fine so I'm half and half /:
  Also beginner is spelled like this. Not begginer xP --Akumo 00:47, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• i agree i dont see anything different either. and the blue theme is all over mabinogi in its in game tutorials and such so keeping it blue makes it look a bit better. it would be nice if you said what exactly was the diffrence.--chrissy of hailfire 01:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'm agreeing with most of the people here, there really isnt a difference besides the color scheme. Although, I do have a suggestion. Maybe you could number the tasks to do, in order of course, instead of it just being a list?--♫ѕταя♪ 01:30, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The whole Part-time Jobs page should be fixed. Remember that you do Beginner part time on the part time quest only and you do Basic regularly afterwards.See my talk page.--黄恒升 ^{☞ 评论 ☜} 01:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

A few more things. What ZRoc said on my talk page: "Sorry, but I would prefer not using a template for the part-time jobs. They make it difficult for people to enter data rather than accessing just a table on an NPC's page. It is easy, especially for new users, to add info to something as simple as the part-time jobs or shop tables when they exist on an NPC's page rather than on a template. Also, the present style of the part-time jobs table fits the page and the rest of the wiki, please dont change it. --ZRoc (Talk) 08:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)"

Overall I feel the same as ZRoc. Although templates are nice and stylish, they should not be used for everything. They can make it very hard for new users to contribute. We want the wiki to be easy for all users, and, the people who contribute to the PTJ page tend to be new / non-wiki-skilled users. The difficulty of templates, I believe, is one of the reasons no one touches our food sections... Anyway, if you can make it easy for newbie users to edit, I'll support it.

Though honestly, my main gripe with it is that you did not use the color scheme that we already have set up for the wiki. I've mentioned before that you ought to stick with the greens/blues that we're already using.

And, as a senior admin, I'm going to suggest that new users' and nonusers (Thirty Five, Kyoko, and Dito (?) ) votes can't count. I'm not saying that your opinion isn't valid, but we simply cannot be sure that you're not part of someone's personal army (lol).

I also suggest posting about this in the wiki forum to get even more opinions.

Heck, I'd rather we just did what ZRoc did here on his data collection page. Collapsible text is all you've really done. ---Angevon 13:59, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Please note that I have been changing the NPC shop and part-time jobs to the collapsible tables format. What's on my test page is the info for part-time jobs I've done, so that I can confirm existing data on NPC pages and its easier to store data there than finding each NPCs page. See any Bangor or Dunbarton NPCs page for what I've changed. Except for being collapsible they are basically the same tables (the part-time job tables have been made more like the shop tables and seperated for beginner, intermediate and advanced jobs) --ZRoc (Talk) 17:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, see Stewart's shop table, in the Spellbook section of his shop. I added what can be obtained if you access his secret shop, which a template would not easily allow (if in fact it would at all). Admittedly, this probably wont happen for the part-time job tables but is another example of how templates can restrict things. I dont have a problem with templates but only when they are really necessary. Where the info can differ a lot between pages or is largely incomplete then they can cause problems by restricting what can be done. --ZRoc (Talk) 18:39, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Q43 Archive Q/A

Should we move this to another page? When you edit this page, it says, it has to much information on it above the text table. - A Random User

The admins will change it when they think its necessary, so don't worry about it. --ZRoc (Talk) 05:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of sort of converting the older questions into a new "Wiki FAQ" page (or something like that). The way this page is set-up is great for new questions, but if someone wants to look at the answers to old and finished questions, it's kinda hard; you have to go through them all since all the questions are labelled by number, not subject or whatever. I'll make a test page later and see what you all think of it. Of course, this won't work for the questions that are style-based or just getting opinions on things ("does this page format look good?" etc.) so I'm not sure what to do about those. I guess just make a subpage of this page like "Question and Answer/Archive1" ---Angevon 21:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If you want to archive the page perhapes do it for the ones that are resolved (the decision on which ones are resolved should be left to you and other admins). The "Wiki FAQ" page would be a good idea. Another suggestion would be to have sub-pages for questions that have long discussions and dont look like they will be resolved quickly (the original question remains on the Q&A page with a link to the sub-page). However, this might just hide the responses and stop others adding their replies, so you might not want to use that idea =P

Also, I would add a statement at the top of the Question and Answer page that archiving, renaming, moving or creating sub-pages of the Question and Answer page is at the sole discretion of admins and is not to be done by normal users. --ZRoc (Talk) 23:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I think moving (what I consider as) the resolved ones is best. But, on the subpage, should they be renumbered, or keep their original numbering on here? ---Angevon 03:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I say the number should remian permanitly to the following articles. - A Random User

I agree with Random, some questions may refer to others so keeping the numbering would probably help. --ZRoc (Talk) 16:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Q44 PTJ naming

Can I use "Basic" instead of "Beginner" for the part-time jobs as 黄恒升 ^{☞ 评论 ☜} suggested in Q42? It seperates them from the beginner quests as he(?) suggested and it fits better with "Intermediate" and "Advanced" than "Beginner" does. --ZRoc (Talk) 06:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Go for it. ---Angevon 18:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Q45 templates

This is about templates. At the moment it is about the ones Random is making, however there have been other users in the past who have done this and there will without doubt be others in the future. I dont have a problem with templates where they are really (and I do mean really) helpful. However, I have the following problems with them being used a lot,

• As mentioned earlier they can make it difficult to enter data, especially for new users.
• Templates that fix a table, e.g., the present ones Random is doing for the item image galleries, restrict the table to what the template sets. It makes it difficult, if not impossible for new wiki users, to change things like the width of columns to make things tidier. In the case of the item image gallery a user may want to change the size of the displayed images.
  • Quoting Angevon from Q16 on this page: "I don't know, forcing sizes for pictures is getting a bit over-controlling, in my opinion. We could just set the sizes on a page-by-page basis (like, use whatever size looks good for the particular picture we have for it) instead of saying that all armor pictures must have the same exact dimensions. ---Angevon 20:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)"
  • Also, would you Angevon have been able to code the "hood up/dowm" changes you made for robes into a template, as easily as you did for presenting that idea in Q16? I would have had to ask someone to do it for me cause I wouldn't know how and that would frustrate me.
• A lot of users probably dont know how to create or edit style templates as opposed to just entering info into data templates. If people leave the wiki for whatever reason and were maintaining those templates then you dont just need anyone to take over, instead it will have to be someone who understands templates as well.
• Finally, templates hide the code. I learnt how to use the wiki by looking at the code and other users helpful advice. If it had all been in templates I would have given up (probably to some people's relief XD).

Again, I dont suggest that templates not be used but I assume this wiki is for anyone to contribute too. That would mean not just data but useful ideas as well. Using templates too much will restrict who can or may be willing to contribute to the wiki. --ZRoc (Talk) 07:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think User:Ladywinter phrased it the best in the DeadEiry project.

The point of templates is to have data in one central location, and from there be able to show the same data on several pages. For example, all of Mayonnaise's food info is on one single template, Template:DataMayonnaise, and this info is used on many different pages. If a change needs to be made, instead of editing 50 different pages referencing Mayonnaise, you just have to edit the main template.

Yes, I didn't have to include the Mayo bit, but I feel that it's important to do so. The main reason for having a template is to have one central source of information, rather than having to edit pages upon pages with the same information. Instead of doing so, just hit the one template, and all other pages that link to said template are updated accordingly.

Templates are a hit-or-miss kinda thing, really. For some things, templates are good. Things that have information that doesn't change and/or doesn't vary very much are conducive for templates. A good example are weapons. 3 hits, average speed, inj, min/max damage, etc are all things found in all weapons. Clothing, monsters, etc. Things that have very variable information should be left to the hard html/wiki code rather than trying to force it into a mold.

Just my $0.02--Demaetri 07:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually I'm the one who wrote that, not Ladywinter :P. I did start using Random's templates on a few pages, and I see how they -could- make it easier to add -new- items, or format pages that aren't converted to the new format yet. You see the two keywords there, right? -could- and -new-.

Prepare for a long explanation of my work with Random's templates. As it turns out, in my own experience and opinion, it is not worth converting pages into these templates. I spent a good 10 minutes trying and failing to make a .png redirect to a .gif on Ulna Protector Gloves. Most of our original item icons came from a Japanese website (which were taken with permission as obtained from Uchocobo) and the filenames do not match the NA localized names. I've never seen a problem with this; it's just a picture, who cares what the filename is as long as it shows up? Well, the templates care, unfortunately. Image rediects are not something natural and are mainly only meant used as a workaround solution (so says Mediawiki's help page on redirects, iirc).

Anyway, in the end, I find it's much easier to simply copy and paste the coding from ZRoc's original tables instead of using these templates. It's not hard, less hassle with file extensions and filenames, and, if someone adds pictures of the headgear (or whatever) in the wrong file-format (say jpg instead of png), he/she can very easily edit and change the extention on the table. I've seen even newbie contributors able to figure this out on their own :) hehe.

However, much like ZRoc I have the attention span of a small bird and get bored easily with what I'm doing on the wiki (this is why most glove and shoes pages have not been converted to the new format, heh). So I got annoyed by the image redirect part and quit using the template. So maybe my opinion is not the best opinion.

Anyway, as I stated before, there's really no point to converting currently-formatted pages into these templates. There simply isn't a reason that I can see.

They -can- be useful for new items, but, ehhhhhh, we already have properly-formatted pages for most future items already.

---Angevon 22:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not have the attention span of a small bird! Maybe a puppy or kitten but definitely not a small bird XD --ZRoc (Talk) 00:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

X3 roflmao - A Random User 00:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Hahaha! I said that because I have a small pet bird. Anyway get back on topic! ---Angevon 00:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Another point against using templates too often. The pages can appear messed up or at least different on the different browsers. The Keywords table, which uses a fairly simple template, looks noticably different on my versions of IE, Firefox, and Opera. ---Angevon 23:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, the central location for data is a good idea in theory but has problems as well, (see Q46, below). Just a suggestion, I would leave any data entered into a data template entirely unformatted. This way the data can be used by as many pages as possible, with any formatting left to style templates (including bulleted lists and other basic formatting). If this is not possible then forget about using templates for the central location of data as its not going to work. --ZRoc (Talk) 09:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

While on the subject of templates, I would like to express my concerns that some of these templates, if they affect a large number of pages, could adversely affect the performance of my server, given what a few of you have observed then reported to me. I would be hesitant to support such a regime of heavy use of templates unless there was a way to lighten the load on my machine.

Otherwise, the real solution is a newer and faster server, preferably on sixty-four-bit hardware, multiple cores and/or processors and a lot more memory now (my machine is a thirty-two-bit machine with three gigabytes' worth of RAM). As I have been told and am discovering for myself, MediaWiki is a VERY resource-intensive application. And as of right now, this wiki is rapidly outstripping what my server can handle. Please bear that in mind when you work on templates whose fan-out is much greater than, say, a couple dozen pages. Unless, of course, you are willing to kick a few bucks into the "buy the wiki a new server" fund. Thank you. --Irjustman 06:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Q46 template data call

Is it possible to call selected data from a template and without the formatting? For example, in Template:DataMonsterGreen Gremlin can I just call the dungeon locations onto a page and not the rest of the data? If so, can I format the dungeon locations list how I want on the page or is it only displayed as it is in the template? --ZRoc (Talk) 03:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Where are all the geniuses making templates? Can one of you answer the question please? --ZRoc (Talk) 22:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You can, but you'd need to make some sort of style template for it. The style template should only ask for the data that you want. However, yes it'll only call up the data as it appears in the original template. So the dungeons list would have to be called up with the bullets points and everything that the monster's template dungeon list has. ---Angevon 23:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you and thats a bummer lol I wanted to use the dungeon and field lists in the monster data template in a table but not as a bulleted list as it would make the table too long and looks weird. The table was for an item's monster drops which would be in a table listing the monsters in one column and the monster's locations in the next column. Centralized data is all fine and good but if it cant be used by all the pages requiring the data then the info is still going to have to be entered manually and updated manually for those pages that can't use it. Quoting from Q45 "The point of templates is to have data in one central location, and from there be able to show the same data on several pages." This is not making me feel any happier about the use of templates T.T --ZRoc (Talk) 00:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Q48 wiki news

About the old "Wiki News" section on the frontpage. Rusty wrote about it on the talk page, and since no one commented on it, I'll start a discussion here. A few weeks ago I changed the title of that section to "General Mabinogi News" but I didn't come up with any criteria for what should be considered news. Should channel crashes and server downs be considered news? Or should we stick with Hengsheng's idea (I think it was him) that only legit Nexon announcements, with external links to their page on the official website, be considered? Should the page continue to be General Mabinogi News or go back to wiki-based news? Lastly, should the page be protected from editing by normal users (i.e. this probably means you lol)? Please comment! ---Angevon 23:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Important news affecting the majority of players, whether Nexon announces them or not, has been very helpful to me and that means channel crashes and server downs. General Mabinogi News seems a more appropriate title. As for who edits the page, I think that normal users should not (which means me) but should be allowed to post suggestions for news topics or discuss them elsewhere (would that still be possible on the talk page if the actual page is protected?). --ZRoc (Talk) 00:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer to see up-to-date information on Mabinogi when I reach the Wiki's mainpage. This includes current channel conditions, major bugs, server check times and patches. Large additions in patches are also welcome. For this, normal users would have to be allowed to update it. It should also appear, in my opinion, at the same height as the Wiki news, not below it. So, above the Wiki Navigation and whatnot. The wiki news would hardly be used though, if this was brought to fruition. (also, the bit at the very top of the Wiki Mainpage seems rather large, extending to talk about a beta program?) ~Zallist 00:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I certainly do use the Wiki Navigation section and like it just where it is. Next time you make a general comment, as in the Wiki Navigation section being hardly used, then please provide the statistics (e.g., how many links are clicked on per day in the Wiki Navigation section) =P --ZRoc (Talk) 00:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

ZRoc, that would require sys-admin level access, which I do not have. Heck, that would also be a pain to track through the logs to find the exact links clicked. I was going by what I commonly do and my friends commonly do, which is to use the Search bar or the left-hand navigation. I've removed my comment on "Which is never used" since this is obviously not the case, but I do find that it's not used as often and seems to only be there for cosmetic value, since most people prefer to Search for items. ~Zallist 01:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I would have been surprised if you could have provided the statistics. I dont doubt you and your friends use the wiki differently from myself or others but that only means your statement, as far as you knew, applied only to you and your friends. Which was what I was trying to show, sorry for being a pain XD --ZRoc (Talk) 10:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, shouldn't the news be about all things concerning the game in all aspects? That means server crashes, patches, events...basically everything. What my main concern NOW...is the fact that someone updated the wikinews with information regarding a client-side crash due to modding. This shouldn't be on the wiki in any form due to the fact that the wiki itself does NOT condone modding. I feel it should be removed. Mods also shouldn't even come into the MabiWiki-picture in any way, shape, or form.--Demaetri (Talk) 04:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

ZRoc: You most assuredly have the ability to edit a given page's talk page if it's not protected, even if its accompanying "project page" is. My user page is protected but my user talk page is not (which is the idea; my talk page archives, however, will be protected so I have something resembling a permanent record). In fact, you yourself have made a contrib or two to it.  :) --Irjustman 06:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that info Irjustman. Then, I again suggest that the actual "General Mabinogi News" be restricted to editing by admins and its associated Talk page be used by normal users to suggest or alert admins to possible newsworthy topics. --ZRoc (Talk) 06:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Q49 missing question

Where is Q47?--Hengsheng120(talk•contribs) 06:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Zallist posted the question and he decided to remove it lol. --ZRoc (Talk) 06:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Q50 item naming

In regard to naming items on the wiki, shouldn't we stay as close as possible to the way Nexon names an item? Except to indicate a difference between items using the exact same in-game name, e.g., adding (M) and (F), I beleive we should use the name Nexon uses (no matter how dumb or incorrect that name may seem). As an example Nexon uses "Japanese Twin Sword Sword" for a particular weapon but on this wiki it is called "Japanese Two-handed Sword". Although I personally think "Japanese Two-handed Sword" sounds better, however, it is not the name people will look for when searching for this item. On the Gachapon page I saw the "Japanese Twin Sword" (incorrect name but I assume they meant "Japanese Twin Sword Sword") and "Japanese Two-handed Sword" listed for the same gachapon. Also, who decides what is the correct names for items, if we do not use Nexon's names? Letting people rename items without someone strictly controlling what is used, can lead to edit wars. Even if Nexon fixes what is an obvious error in naming that sword, who says they will use "Japanese Two-handed Sword" and not "Japanese Twin Sword" or some other name they decide upon in their infinite wisdom and good taste? --ZRoc (Talk) 15:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and move the page to the official NA name. ---Angevon 23:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)