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Talk:Combo: Counter Punch

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Contents

Thread titleRepliesLast modified
Critical hit rate.504:55, 17 February 2022
Holy (Likely) Hell1304:22, 15 June 2015
Damage219:19, 10 June 2013
Stamina Use722:48, 14 May 2013
Loading time221:59, 13 May 2013
Heavy Stander1010:17, 29 April 2013
Critical Damage?121:38, 26 April 2013
Conflicting damage (%) values004:33, 17 March 2013

Critical hit rate.

The page states that critical rate only takes into account the target's crit chance.

But with 52 current prot, which is 47 effective prot, which is 94% crit removed... Young Raccoons are getting hit with crits with this skill.

So unless Young Raccoons have 95%+ critical, I believe this is false and am editing the page accordingly.

Rydian (talk)05:00, 6 August 2016

Just spent some time mastering Rank 1 Counter Punch on my human. I started on the assumption that the critical hits required for skill training were determined by my character's chance of scoring a hit on the target. Started with the Dire Wolves near Ciar Dungeon since they were weak and will usually attack promptly when provoked. Less than 1 in 10 counterpunches were scoring as critical.

Then found some comments suggesting that the Counter Punch critical hits were actually related to the targets chance of scoring a critical hit on my character. Took off all armor, reducing protection to zero. Moved to hard mode Dorren's Request, green switch for crag cows and shadow shires. Got a significant increase in frequency of criticals for training. Small sample, but it's plausible that I was getting 30%, which is often mentioned as a cap.

So it looks to me that the criticals are being determined by the target's critical chance rather than the character's critical chance. In general, this would be odd for a character skill, but for a "counter" skill I guess it's plausible.

But then I can't explain your Raccoon example. So I tried to verify that.

Some MMORPGs compensate for poor AI by having asymetric combat formula. That is, the formula for calculating combat outcomes are different for players and monsters. We think the formula for calculating a player's character's chance of scoring a critical hit is (Attacker's Critical %) - (Target's Effective Protection * 2). Do we have any source suggesting the same formula is used for calculating a monster's chance of scoring a critical hit on a player's character? So, I was wondering whether the Raccoons are scoring critical hits due to the monsters having a different formula.

My giant has 45 protection. I just used Enthralling Performance to get a bunch of raccoon's to attack it repeatedly. They only do 1 damage. So how do I know if they're scoring any critical hits? The words "Critical Hit" only appear in the middle of the screen when a player scores a critical hit, not when a monster scores a critical hit on a player. So switched to my human, which hasn't yet fully trained the critical hit skill, so if it receives a critical hit I get a notification that the training count for critical hit increased. No - those raccoons are not scoring any critical hits. Even with armor removed, reducing protection to 1, they aren't scoring critical hits. Switched to my elf, that hasn't yet fully trained Counter Punch. Yes - it can get criticals when using Counter Punch on Raccoons. No - it's not receiving any critical hits from basic attacks from the Raccoons.

So I think I've verified your argument.

Which leaves me confused. Raccoons aren't scoring critical hits on normal attacks, but I can get increments to the critical hit training component of Counter Punch with raccoons. That suggests the target's chance of critical hit is irrelevant. But if I do things to increase the chance that the target scores a critical hit on my character, like removing all armor and fighting harder monsters, the frequency of incrementing the critical training component of Counter Punch increases a lot. That suggests the target's chance of scoring a critical hit is relevant.

So I don't know what's going on. Does Counter Punch use a formula for calculating chance of critical hit which is inconsistent with very other skill in the game? I'm out of ideas. Giving up for now.

Librarian (talk)17:28, 5 January 2022

Raccoons are a very bad target to test this on because they might not be capable of scoring critical hits at all, with their stats and skills the way that they are. In other words, I don't think they have a Rank F Critical Hit.

Lint (talk)23:02, 5 January 2022

Which agrees with what I described in my 6th paragraph.

Librarian (talk)01:30, 10 January 2022

Its possible, since I haven't worked with the skill much, that the Additional Critical Damage is actually Additional Critical Chance. That's how regular Counterattack works after all. That's also how Lance Counter works, so I find the "Critical Damage" to be very odd. If you get a chance, try to see if the rate of Criticals from Raccoons seem to match the rate the skill's "Critical Damage" is supposed to be at.

Lint (talk)08:39, 10 January 2022

I was just using the event bonuses to finish of training all the Rank 1 fighter skills to mastery level on my elf. To finish off the "Get a Critcal Hit with Counter Punch" part of rank 1 Counter Punch I took off all armour to eliminate protection and jumped into Dorren's Request Hard Mode. As above, used the green switch to get crag cows and shadow shires. Loaded counter punch 56 times and 28 times I got an increment to the training count. So exactly 50%.

When the stats page talks about critical hit rate is states "However, regardless of the player's critical and the target's protection, the chance to score a critical hit is capped at 30%." My elf is sufficiently advanced to hit that cap. And on the Counter Punch page, it claims Rank 1 Counter Punch gives a 20% boost to what is described as "Additional Critical Damage", but multiple people have suggested that it is really "Additional Critical Probability".

30% + 20% matches the observed rate of 50%.

And after I had done that I realised that while I had removed all armour, I'd forgotten to remove a title, so in the character window my protection was showing as "5 (0)". So 5 protection by zero base protection.

So it looks like at Rank 1 Counter Punch, with minimal protection and reasonably powerful monsters we can get 50% of our Counter Punches to score as critical. But with higher protection and weaker mobs like raccoons or dire wolves the rate is way lower. (I never formally collected data, but it felt much lower than 10%. It was tediously slow training!)

Anyhow, that's Counter Punch fully mastered now on all 3 of my characters, so I won't be generating any more data on this issue.

Librarian (talk)04:55, 17 February 2022
 
 
 
 
 

Holy (Likely) Hell

Is this a comparison page or a skill page?

This is how often the word "Like/Unlike" appears in the details section.
Spoiler Alert: It's pretty much the entire section.

Is that really necessary? Like, really?

Well it IS a pretty strange skill so....maybe?

DANTE20XX (talk)22:37, 10 June 2013
 

This is bugging me as well. It looks really stupid to read.

Like, can't we just say something like "This skill is different from Counterattack and Lance Counter"?

Sakura502 (talk)05:34, 14 June 2015
 

CP is largely similar to CA and LC... As Dante said its a pretty strange skill.

Infodude575 (talk)10:40, 14 June 2015

Then the same thing has got to be done to those pages. Better get to work.

 

... Why?

I never even said I was opposed to what Sakura suggested.

Infodude575 (talk)11:24, 14 June 2015

So you'd rather do the inverse of what Sakura suggested, then?

Infodude575 (talk)11:44, 14 June 2015
 

Stop being a troll, iDSd. Stop responding to obvious troll attempts, Info.

We obviously don't want this sort of stuff on all the pages. In my opinion, we should not be making comparisons to other skills in any of the skill pages or else we're going to be mentioning every single skill on every page.

Blargel (talk)11:50, 14 June 2015
 

I agree that this is pretty poorly done, so I changed it. Last time I took initiative in a case like this someone got grumpy. However, some comparisons might still be worth mentioning as it is one of three "counter" skills; it was just last to be added (I think). On the other hand, unless someone wants to add the relevant comparisons to the other two pages, there should be no comparisons at all, and simply list what this skill DOES or DOES NOT do.

Keep comparisons:

No comparisons:


I could stand if some more of this was removed. (one of the original lines is actually listed twice!) For example, I'm not sure about the decay thing, but I've never used it.

Shroom Fonzerelli (talk)16:20, 14 June 2015
 

I don't really mind if there were some comparisons, given that CP is the last counter skill to be added (G17; CA was in G1 and LC was in G14).

And yes, Counter Punch does decay. Even on a White Spider it can do as low as 1 damage if left out too long. The formula and stuff for the decay damage isn't known, though.

Infodude575 (talk)16:48, 14 June 2015
 

That may be, but to anyone who hasn't been around for years, that is an irrelevant fact. We have the patches page (and some other page I never go to) for the sake of recording game history but it should never affect the presence or absence of date of any other page.

Great Expectations was written before The Great Gatsby, but all anyone cares to know is that they are both really old books that we are forced to read and analyze.

Shroom Fonzerelli (talk)18:36, 14 June 2015
 

Fair point. Though I doubt Counter Punch can be learned either before Attack and/or Lance, but that's probably irrelevant as well.

Infodude575 (talk)18:50, 14 June 2015
 

Counterattack might be more difficult to avoid, but because of how talents work, it would be fairly easy to learn any one of the three without the others two.

Shroom Fonzerelli (talk)04:22, 15 June 2015
 
 
 

Like the other Counters, does it consider the enemy's damage as well or does CP do flat-out damage?

Infodude575 (talk)11:24, 25 May 2013

Bump

Infodude575 (talk)18:30, 10 June 2013
 

Flat damage based on player damage only.

JP wiki says: 敵の攻撃力はダメージに一切影響しない。
Roughly Translated: Something about enemy damage not affecting the skill at all.

☽S☆A☆R☆I☆A☾ (talk)19:18, 10 June 2013
 

Stamina Use

Can someone put it down? I have no idea how to do the charts.

Infodude575 (talk)18:21, 13 May 2013

! Stamina Use | |-

Separate each value you with a double line (||). if is spans multiple columns, you use "|colspan="X" and replace X with the number of columns. then you just place a value with "| X" after the column span. repalce that X with a value.

I do not have this skill, so I can't exactly test it...I mean sure I could probably get it in no time, but about to head home from a party. Summer kicks off whoooo

 

Kevin loves lurking in the pack files though.

Infodude575 (talk)21:05, 13 May 2013
 

Could someone who has the skill compare these numbers to what they're seeing ingame? Preferably with meditation on so stam regen is paused.

Sozen Cratos Focker (talk)21:04, 14 May 2013
 

Rank 5: 12

Infodude575 (talk)21:42, 14 May 2013

You mean you have rank 5, and 12 is how much stam it takes, not just how much you need to have?(They're not always the same amount, there were a lot of edit wars because of that when AR came out)


Also, regarding the line about when stamina is consumed, it's not implied because it's the opposite for most skills, and it's kind of important cause it means no stamina is used if you're not attacked, so don't remove that line unless it's false.

Sozen Cratos Focker (talk)21:47, 14 May 2013
 

Correct.

Also where the hell did those tiny numbers come from?

Infodude575 (talk)22:19, 14 May 2013

Usually, the mana/stam use numbers listed are per second, so I multiplied the stam use nuber by the unmodified load time of .3 seconds but I guess that was dumb since this isn't the while loading number.

Sozen Cratos Focker (talk)22:47, 14 May 2013
 
 
 

Loading time

I find this skill to be unreliable compare to the normal Counterattack skill. For some reason many times the skill is loaded (as it appears in solid bubble above my character) but the enemy was still able hit thru it. This never happened to Counterattack afaik...

Kgptzac (talk)11:51, 6 May 2013

Its because Counter doesn't break when hit in the middle of loading, but CP does.

Infodude575 (talk)17:16, 6 May 2013
 

In the middle of loading....an instant load skill that you can see is clearly fully loaded above your head? Makes sense!

DANTE20XX (talk)21:59, 13 May 2013
 

Heavy Stander

Are you sure its not because of their stun resistance?

Infodude575 (talk)21:30, 26 April 2013

I was using it a decent bit on enemies with heavy stander and I did indeed get hit every time and it didn't stun them very long at all...where-as if I used, let's say, charging strike they would be stunned more than long enough to allow me to still use uppercut. Using charging strike as well, I didn't take damage when their heavy stander activated.

I almost want to say counter punch is bugged and it shouldn't be doing this, but it's hard to say.

DANTE20XX (talk)21:36, 26 April 2013
 

I tested it on more monsters with heavy stander since i made the post, including different levels of heavy stander, I always take damage each time but so does the monster.

Pyro - (Talk)14:32, 27 April 2013

I killed an Int Snow Golem with CP, and I didn't get damaged at all. I'm pretty sure its their stun immunity.

Infodude575 (talk)15:09, 27 April 2013
 

Ya, read that other post under this.

Pyro - (Talk)22:07, 27 April 2013
 

I've been talking to a few people and we came with this hypothesis. It is because normal counterattack and lance counter flings the enemy away in a knock back before they manage to hit you, but counter punch only stuns, which heavy stander is immune to.

Pyro - (Talk)14:35, 27 April 2013

Well obviously yes, but is counter punch supposed to be so...bad against heavy stander? And heavy stander is NOT immune to stun, it just shortens the stun duration. If counter punch's stun was longer than it is now, it wouldn't be affected by heavy stander as much.

DANTE20XX (talk)22:36, 28 April 2013
 

I want to say no this is not intended, but it's not really a glitch either so all we can do is report it and hope it is an oversight.

Pyro - (Talk)22:59, 28 April 2013
 

Yeah it almost seems like it's buggy and doesn't work correctly, but I really have no clue if that's intentional.

DANTE20XX (talk)00:06, 29 April 2013
 

Actually, monster heavy stander reduces normal hit stun to 0. Critical strikes delay the AI, but in general they strike back instantaneously. The perceived delay is actually their attack animation. Melee auto-defend chance from gear works the same way, but with the side effect that it does not remove any sort of previous stun incurred, whereas monster heavy stander does.

Counter punch does not cause any stun if it hits heavy stander, but it does "block" a hit. Its just that the monster immediately attacks again anyways as it is not interrupted. A similar thing can be seen if you hit a monster with Counterattack up and the knockback is blocked by demigod. It just resets your attack animation and you keep attacking.

Tellos (talk)10:17, 29 April 2013
 

Counter Punch's extended stun is reduced due to the Heavy Stander, which has a tendency to remove/reduce stun time. I'm not really sure what is the problem :c It's treated like a normal hit with extra stun time since the other counters knock them back. If it is really an issue as it sounds, then better report it to the forums.

☽S☆A☆R☆I☆A☾ (talk)07:08, 29 April 2013
 

Critical Damage?

Is it really? Because Normal C and Lance C adds Critical Rate.

Infodude575 (talk)20:21, 24 April 2013

I have no idea what it means by that, but it probably IS high crit chance, not crit damage. I mean, the skill itself doesn't do a whole lot even at r1, so I don't see why it would even matter if it did more critical damage. Then again, the other 2 chain 1 skills ignore protection for getting criticals, but this one does not....or does it?

I was hoping (before the skill came out) that it actually enabled your NEXT attack (so a chain 2 skill) to do higher critical damage. That would have been neat. Maybe it actually does, it's hard to say since I've only got rank F counter punch.

DANTE20XX (talk)21:38, 26 April 2013
 

Conflicting damage (%) values

The damage (%) values listed in the summary are different than the values listed in the training method section.

Valmiria (talk)04:33, 17 March 2013