Talk:Combo: Counter Punch

The page states that critical rate only takes into account the target's crit chance.

But with 52 current prot, which is 47 effective prot, which is 94% crit removed... Young Raccoons are getting hit with crits with this skill.

So unless Young Raccoons have 95%+ critical, I believe this is false and am editing the page accordingly.

Just spent some time mastering Rank 1 Counter Punch on my human. I started on the assumption that the critical hits required for skill training were determined by my character's chance of scoring a hit on the target. Started with the Dire Wolves near Ciar Dungeon since they were weak and will usually attack promptly when provoked. Less than 1 in 10 counterpunches were scoring as critical.

Then found some comments suggesting that the Counter Punch critical hits were actually related to the targets chance of scoring a critical hit on my character. Took off all armor, reducing protection to zero. Moved to hard mode Dorren's Request, green switch for crag cows and shadow shires. Got a significant increase in frequency of criticals for training. Small sample, but it's plausible that I was getting 30%, which is often mentioned as a cap.

So it looks to me that the criticals are being determined by the target's critical chance rather than the character's critical chance. In general, this would be odd for a character skill, but for a "counter" skill I guess it's plausible.

But then I can't explain your Raccoon example. So I tried to verify that.

Some MMORPGs compensate for poor AI by having asymetric combat formula. That is, the formula for calculating combat outcomes are different for players and monsters. We think the formula for calculating a player's character's chance of scoring a critical hit is (Attacker's Critical %) - (Target's Effective Protection * 2). Do we have any source suggesting the same formula is used for calculating a monster's chance of scoring a critical hit on a player's character? So, I was wondering whether the Raccoons are scoring critical hits due to the monsters having a different formula.

My giant has 45 protection. I just used Enthralling Performance to get a bunch of raccoon's to attack it repeatedly. They only do 1 damage. So how do I know if they're scoring any critical hits? The words "Critical Hit" only appear in the middle of the screen when a player scores a critical hit, not when a monster scores a critical hit on a player. So switched to my human, which hasn't yet fully trained the critical hit skill, so if it receives a critical hit I get a notification that the training count for critical hit increased. No - those raccoons are not scoring any critical hits. Even with armor removed, reducing protection to 1, they aren't scoring critical hits. Switched to my elf, that hasn't yet fully trained Counter Punch. Yes - it can get criticals when using Counter Punch on Raccoons. No - it's not receiving any critical hits from basic attacks from the Raccoons.

So I think I've verified your argument.

Which leaves me confused. Raccoons aren't scoring critical hits on normal attacks, but I can get increments to the critical hit training component of Counter Punch with raccoons. That suggests the target's chance of critical hit is irrelevant. But if I do things to increase the chance that the target scores a critical hit on my character, like removing all armor and fighting harder monsters, the frequency of incrementing the critical training component of Counter Punch increases a lot. That suggests the target's chance of scoring a critical hit is relevant.

So I don't know what's going on. Does Counter Punch use a formula for calculating chance of critical hit which is inconsistent with very other skill in the game? I'm out of ideas. Giving up for now.

Raccoons are a very bad target to test this on because they might not be capable of scoring critical hits at all, with their stats and skills the way that they are. In other words, I don't think they have a Rank F Critical Hit.

Which agrees with what I described in my 6th paragraph.

Its possible, since I haven't worked with the skill much, that the Additional Critical Damage is actually Additional Critical Chance. That's how regular Counterattack works after all. That's also how Lance Counter works, so I find the "Critical Damage" to be very odd. If you get a chance, try to see if the rate of Criticals from Raccoons seem to match the rate the skill's "Critical Damage" is supposed to be at.

I was just using the event bonuses to finish of training all the Rank 1 fighter skills to mastery level on my elf. To finish off the "Get a Critcal Hit with Counter Punch" part of rank 1 Counter Punch I took off all armour to eliminate protection and jumped into Dorren's Request Hard Mode. As above, used the green switch to get crag cows and shadow shires. Loaded counter punch 56 times and 28 times I got an increment to the training count. So exactly 50%.

When the stats page talks about critical hit rate is states "However, regardless of the player's critical and the target's protection, the chance to score a critical hit is capped at 30%." My elf is sufficiently advanced to hit that cap. And on the Counter Punch page, it claims Rank 1 Counter Punch gives a 20% boost to what is described as "Additional Critical Damage", but multiple people have suggested that it is really "Additional Critical Probability".

30% + 20% matches the observed rate of 50%.

And after I had done that I realised that while I had removed all armour, I'd forgotten to remove a title, so in the character window my protection was showing as "5 (0)". So 5 protection by zero base protection.

So it looks like at Rank 1 Counter Punch, with minimal protection and reasonably powerful monsters we can get 50% of our Counter Punches to score as critical. But with higher protection and weaker mobs like raccoons or dire wolves the rate is way lower. (I never formally collected data, but it felt much lower than 10%. It was tediously slow training!)

Anyhow, that's Counter Punch fully mastered now on all 3 of my characters, so I won't be generating any more data on this issue.

Is this a comparison page or a skill page?

This is how often the word "Like/Unlike" appears in the details section.
Spoiler Alert: It's pretty much the entire section.

Is that really necessary? Like, really?

Well it IS a pretty strange skill so....maybe?

This is bugging me as well. It looks really stupid to read.

Like, can't we just say something like "This skill is different from Counterattack and Lance Counter"?

CP is largely similar to CA and LC... As Dante said its a pretty strange skill.

Then the same thing has got to be done to those pages. Better get to work.

... Why?

I never even said I was opposed to what Sakura suggested.

Consistency.

So you'd rather do the inverse of what Sakura suggested, then?

Stop being a troll, iDSd. Stop responding to obvious troll attempts, Info.

We obviously don't want this sort of stuff on all the pages. In my opinion, we should not be making comparisons to other skills in any of the skill pages or else we're going to be mentioning every single skill on every page.

I agree that this is pretty poorly done, so I changed it. Last time I took initiative in a case like this someone got grumpy. However, some comparisons might still be worth mentioning as it is one of three "counter" skills; it was just last to be added (I think). On the other hand, unless someone wants to add the relevant comparisons to the other two pages, there should be no comparisons at all, and simply list what this skill DOES or DOES NOT do.

Keep comparisons:

• Requires Knuckles equipped in order to use.
• Stage 1 Chain that places the user in a defensive stance and then quickly retaliates against a physical attack, similar to Lance Counter.
  • Unlike Counterattack and Lance Counter, the enemy will not be knocked backwards on a successful counter, unless the attack sends the enemy into deadly status. Instead, the enemy will be placed into extended stun.
• Counter Punch will do less damage the longer it is loaded.
  • This decay happens slowly during the first 3 seconds, but greatly increases afterwards.
    • This appears visually as glowing fists.
    • If Counter Punch is loaded beyond 3 seconds, the stun duration is lowered to 1.5 seconds and the chain sequence does not occur.
• Unlike normal Counterattack and Lance Counter, Counter Punch only uses the player's damage instead of both the enemy's and the player's.
• Counter Punch will not stun the enemy if Melee Auto Defense triggers. Additionally, the player will be delayed as though they had hit the enemy with a Normal Attack.
  • The enemy will be free to continue attacking when this occurs.
• Counter Punch only consumes Stamina upon successful use.
• Like normal Counterattack and Lance Counter:
  • Counter Punch repels melee Normal Attacks, Smash, Charge, Lance Charge, Charging Strike, Focused Fist, Spinning Uppercut, Somersault Kick, Dischord, Act 1: Inciting Incident, Act 2: Threshold Cutter, and Flash Launcher.
  • Counter Punch does not work against Windmill, Stomp, Assault Slash, Drop Kick, Pummel, Wire Pull, Puppet's Snare, Act 4: Rising Action, Act 6: Crisis, Act 7: Climactic Crash, the eruption from Act 9: Invigorating Encore, Dual Gun Normal Attacks, Grapple Shot, Bullet Slide, Shooting Rush, Bullet Storm, Doppelganger, Ranged, Magic, Alchemy, Spirit Weapon Awakening, and many Monster and Pet Skills.
  • The Critical Hit chance for Counter Punch depends solely on the target's Critical rate. Player's base Critical rate is ignored.
  • Counter Punch does not reflect Injury.
• Unlike most skills where they enter cooldown upon successful activation, Counter Punch enters cooldown if interrupted or manually canceled.
  • Additionally, it is not possible to load Counter Punch while knocked down.

No comparisons:

• Requires Knuckles equipped in order to use.
• Stage 1 Chain that places the user in a defensive stance and then quickly retaliates against a physical attack, similar to Lance Counter.
  • The enemy will not be knocked backwards on a successful counter unless the attack sends the enemy into deadly status. Instead, the enemy will be placed into extended stun.
• Counter Punch will do less damage the longer it is loaded.
  • This decay happens slowly during the first 3 seconds, but greatly increases afterwards.
    • This appears visually as glowing fists.
    • If Counter Punch is loaded beyond 3 seconds, the stun duration is lowered to 1.5 seconds and the chain sequence does not occur.
• Counter Punch only uses the player's damage.
• Counter Punch will not stun the enemy if Melee Auto Defense triggers. Additionally, the player will be delayed as though they had hit the enemy with a Normal Attack.
  • The enemy will be free to continue attacking when this occurs.
• Counter Punch only consumes Stamina upon successful use.
• Counter Punch repels melee Normal Attacks, Smash, Charge, Lance Charge, Charging Strike, Focused Fist, Spinning Uppercut, Somersault Kick, Dischord, Act 1: Inciting Incident, Act 2: Threshold Cutter, and Flash Launcher.
• Counter Punch does not work against Windmill, Stomp, Assault Slash, Drop Kick, Pummel, Wire Pull, Puppet's Snare, Act 4: Rising Action, Act 6: Crisis, Act 7: Climactic Crash, the eruption from Act 9: Invigorating Encore, Dual Gun Normal Attacks, Grapple Shot, Bullet Slide, Shooting Rush, Bullet Storm, Doppelganger, Ranged, Magic, Alchemy, Spirit Weapon Awakening, and many Monster and Pet Skills.
• The Critical Hit chance for Counter Punch depends solely on the target's Critical rate. Player's base Critical rate is ignored.
• Counter Punch does not reflect Injury.
• Unlike most skills where they enter cooldown upon successful activation, Counter Punch enters cooldown if interrupted or manually canceled.
  • Additionally, it is not possible to load Counter Punch while knocked down.

I could stand if some more of this was removed. (one of the original lines is actually listed twice!) For example, I'm not sure about the decay thing, but I've never used it.

I don't really mind if there were some comparisons, given that CP is the last counter skill to be added (G17; CA was in G1 and LC was in G14).

And yes, Counter Punch does decay. Even on a White Spider it can do as low as 1 damage if left out too long. The formula and stuff for the decay damage isn't known, though.

That may be, but to anyone who hasn't been around for years, that is an irrelevant fact. We have the patches page (and some other page I never go to) for the sake of recording game history but it should never affect the presence or absence of date of any other page.

Great Expectations was written before The Great Gatsby, but all anyone cares to know is that they are both really old books that we are forced to read and analyze.

Fair point. Though I doubt Counter Punch can be learned either before Attack and/or Lance, but that's probably irrelevant as well.

Counterattack might be more difficult to avoid, but because of how talents work, it would be fairly easy to learn any one of the three without the others two.

Like the other Counters, does it consider the enemy's damage as well or does CP do flat-out damage?

Bump

Flat damage based on player damage only.

JP wiki says: 敵の攻撃力はダメージに一切影響しない。
Roughly Translated: Something about enemy damage not affecting the skill at all.

Can someone put it down? I have no idea how to do the charts.

! Stamina Use | |-

Separate each value you with a double line (||). if is spans multiple columns, you use "|colspan="X" and replace X with the number of columns. then you just place a value with "| X" after the column span. repalce that X with a value.

I do not have this skill, so I can't exactly test it...I mean sure I could probably get it in no time, but about to head home from a party. Summer kicks off whoooo

Kevin loves lurking in the pack files though.

Could someone who has the skill compare these numbers to what they're seeing ingame? Preferably with meditation on so stam regen is paused.

Rank 5: 12

You mean you have rank 5, and 12 is how much stam it takes, not just how much you need to have?(They're not always the same amount, there were a lot of edit wars because of that when AR came out)

Also, regarding the line about when stamina is consumed, it's not implied because it's the opposite for most skills, and it's kind of important cause it means no stamina is used if you're not attacked, so don't remove that line unless it's false.

Correct.

Also where the hell did those tiny numbers come from?

Usually, the mana/stam use numbers listed are per second, so I multiplied the stam use nuber by the unmodified load time of .3 seconds but I guess that was dumb since this isn't the while loading number.

I find this skill to be unreliable compare to the normal Counterattack skill. For some reason many times the skill is loaded (as it appears in solid bubble above my character) but the enemy was still able hit thru it. This never happened to Counterattack afaik...

Its because Counter doesn't break when hit in the middle of loading, but CP does.

In the middle of loading....an instant load skill that you can see is clearly fully loaded above your head? Makes sense!

Are you sure its not because of their stun resistance?

I was using it a decent bit on enemies with heavy stander and I did indeed get hit every time and it didn't stun them very long at all...where-as if I used, let's say, charging strike they would be stunned more than long enough to allow me to still use uppercut. Using charging strike as well, I didn't take damage when their heavy stander activated.

I almost want to say counter punch is bugged and it shouldn't be doing this, but it's hard to say.

I tested it on more monsters with heavy stander since i made the post, including different levels of heavy stander, I always take damage each time but so does the monster.

I killed an Int Snow Golem with CP, and I didn't get damaged at all. I'm pretty sure its their stun immunity.

Ya, read that other post under this.

I've been talking to a few people and we came with this hypothesis. It is because normal counterattack and lance counter flings the enemy away in a knock back before they manage to hit you, but counter punch only stuns, which heavy stander is immune to.

Well obviously yes, but is counter punch supposed to be so...bad against heavy stander? And heavy stander is NOT immune to stun, it just shortens the stun duration. If counter punch's stun was longer than it is now, it wouldn't be affected by heavy stander as much.

I want to say no this is not intended, but it's not really a glitch either so all we can do is report it and hope it is an oversight.

Yeah it almost seems like it's buggy and doesn't work correctly, but I really have no clue if that's intentional.

Actually, monster heavy stander reduces normal hit stun to 0. Critical strikes delay the AI, but in general they strike back instantaneously. The perceived delay is actually their attack animation. Melee auto-defend chance from gear works the same way, but with the side effect that it does not remove any sort of previous stun incurred, whereas monster heavy stander does.

Counter punch does not cause any stun if it hits heavy stander, but it does "block" a hit. Its just that the monster immediately attacks again anyways as it is not interrupted. A similar thing can be seen if you hit a monster with Counterattack up and the knockback is blocked by demigod. It just resets your attack animation and you keep attacking.

Counter Punch's extended stun is reduced due to the Heavy Stander, which has a tendency to remove/reduce stun time. I'm not really sure what is the problem :c It's treated like a normal hit with extra stun time since the other counters knock them back. If it is really an issue as it sounds, then better report it to the forums.

Is it really? Because Normal C and Lance C adds Critical Rate.

I have no idea what it means by that, but it probably IS high crit chance, not crit damage. I mean, the skill itself doesn't do a whole lot even at r1, so I don't see why it would even matter if it did more critical damage. Then again, the other 2 chain 1 skills ignore protection for getting criticals, but this one does not....or does it?

I was hoping (before the skill came out) that it actually enabled your NEXT attack (so a chain 2 skill) to do higher critical damage. That would have been neat. Maybe it actually does, it's hard to say since I've only got rank F counter punch.

The damage (%) values listed in the summary are different than the values listed in the training method section.